Chiba system

[MDR]

Has anyone on this site tried the Halvor Bjoerngaard's Chiba System (non toxic alternative to gum and carbon print) and if so how does it results compare to regular gum prints and carbon prints?

Dominik

 

[musila]

I'm sorry, but I can't help yet, but I just wanted to thank you for bring this to my attention. I'm always nervous when I use dichromate processes, for the health reasons. So once I run out of it, probably within the next month, I'll start experimenting with this.

 

[Cascam]

Did you try yet?

 

[musila]

I have, but I don't feel like I experimented with it enough to fairly comment on it. But I did notice the colors are truer to the actual watercolor pigments than gum prints, probably from the dichromate stain and unbleached gum I was using. I experimented with the direct gelatin variation. I made a glop more concentrated than I need (6-12% gel) and then I melt it, and dilute/mix (a portion at a time) with a AFC solution and coat it before it sets. Then expose it, and presoak it in a H2O2 solution before developing it with hot water, agitating like you would a carbon transfer print. I took a break from it because of the semester, but I'm going to start again later this week, after final exams. My impression is that the process would be nice for making 3 color prints (I'm hoping anyway).

 

[Cascam]

hello Musila,

sorry I'm not a native english reader, what is the AFC solution?

Casper

 

[musila]

It's Ammonium Ferric Citrate dissolved in water.

 

[NedL]

I am currently trying to use AFC to make oil pigment prints, and will eventually try to make prints using what Bjoerngaard calls the "direct carbon" method in his Chiba System.

I may possibly take a side journey ( w/ AFC ) into what (there was a url link here which no longer exists) if it looks like gelatin can be the basis for a gumoil-type print.

I also started an (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for notes about any progress. Please feel free to make any comments in the blog.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ned

I downloaded the Chiba notes and read through them, quite frankly I did not understand the system, I am using pigment gum over palladium (as you know)
and quite happy with my progress.

I will follow with interest as you move forward.. maybe you will be able to explain the process much more clearly down the road.

Bob

 

[NedL]

Hi Bob, if it works I'll try to write a clear "how to".

 

[crumpet8]

Any updates on this thread?

 

[NedL]

Any updates on this thread?

If you mean the variation that I have been playing with, which is similar to a Rawlins' oil print, I am still making slow progress. Unfortunately, the blog to track progress disappeared when APUG moved to its new software.

The two things that took a lot of time and testing were:

• finding a kind of paper that works well

The gelatin needs to adhere and not slide off or blister during long washes, and the characteristics of the paper also affect how well the AFC sensitizer works to make a good gelatin relief and if it is possible to clear the AFC. I've found that Strathmore 400 printmaking paper works.​

• clearing the AFC from the gelatin

I spent an awful lot of time trying different combinations and concentrations of sodium sulfite, citric acid, and tetra-sodium EDTA with different papers and never got perfect clearing. Then I got some di-sodium EDTA ( which is what Halvor Bjørngård used ), and it works very well.


​

 

[crumpet8]

If you mean the variation that I have been playing with, which is similar to a Rawlins' oil print, I am still making slow progress. Unfortunately, the blog to track progress disappeared I spent an awful lot of time trying different combinations and concentrations of sodium sulfite, citric acid, and tetra-sodium

​

Thanks, I'm still researching but Im sure I'll get back to you with some follow up questions in the future

 

[imgprojts]

If you mean the variation that I have been playing with, which is similar to a Rawlins' oil print, I am still making slow progress. Unfortunately, the blog to track progress disappeared when APUG moved to its new software.

The two things that took a lot of time and testing were:

• finding a kind of paper that works well

The gelatin needs to adhere and not slide off or blister during long washes, and the characteristics of the paper also affect how well the AFC sensitizer works to make a good gelatin relief and if it is possible to clear the AFC. I've found that Strathmore 400 printmaking paper works.​

• clearing the AFC from the gelatin

I spent an awful lot of time trying different combinations and concentrations of sodium sulfite, citric acid, and tetra-sodium EDTA with different papers and never got perfect clearing. Then I got some di-sodium EDTA ( which is what Halvor Bjørngård used ), and it works very well.​

​

​

​

Hello. I know this is a super old post, but I want to use the chiba process and been having trouble. I've so far made a single print that worked OK. Are my ingredients correct?

This recipe didn't work much, I made a single print where I could recognize some features. But I had previously made a print so nice I could not believe my eyes. All I can think off that may be causing it is that maybe I used citrate last time instead of oxalate? Like in my failed prints I could see that the image was over exposed maybe. I tried less exposure and saw nothing. The other thing is that I waited a few days for the papers to dry. but using the same stuff for cyanotype seems to cause a dark effect within a day. I placed the unexposed papers in a dark place. Anyway, I just want to see if I can repeat that good print first and then walk my thru to make it better.

 

[fgorga]

Hello. I know this is a super old post, but I want to use the chiba process and been having trouble. I've so far made a single print that worked OK. Are my ingredients correct?
View attachment 379839
This recipe didn't work much, I made a single print where I could recognize some features. But I had previously made a print so nice I could not believe my eyes. All I can think off that may be causing it is that maybe I used citrate last time instead of oxalate? Like in my failed prints I could see that the image was over exposed maybe. I tried less exposure and saw nothing. The other thing is that I waited a few days for the papers to dry. but using the same stuff for cyanotype seems to cause a dark effect within a day. I placed the unexposed papers in a dark place. Anyway, I just want to see if I can repeat that good print first and then walk my thru to make it better.

Ammonium iron oxalate is an ambiguous term. What was the oxidation state of the iron? The (possibly) correct compound to use would be ferric ammonium oxalate. The ferrous compound will not work.

Next, the molecular weight of ferric ammonium oxalate is 374 and the molecular weight of the citrate compound is 265. Therefore if you substituted the citrate compound with the same weight of the oxalate compound you used 70% (265/374 = 0.7) less compound on a molar basis. This could certainly affect the result.

Finally, you say "citric acid to pH 4" and then specify an exact weight (1 g). Did you measure the pH or did you blindly add 1 g?

If you blindly added 1 g of citric acid the pH will be very different for a solution containing ferric ammonium oxalate vs. ferric ammonium citrate. Oxalate has two carboxylate groups and citrate has three. You will need less acid to get a solution of the oxalate compound to the same pH as you would for the citrate compound.

Bottom line... many possible mistakes might have been made.

 

[imgprojts]

I see. Chemistry! LOL. Okay your comment helps me understand what I can do next and then quantities I need to control better. I made some initial formulas by volume/mass ratios but I see what I did wrong there. Thanks for the input!

 

[koraks]

Are my ingredients correct

For what it's worth, I've done something similar with ferric ammonium citrate/FAC (so not oxalate). Basically a carbon transfer print, but the thing of course won't transfer because I didn't do anything to seal the surface from oxygen. The hardening in very dilute peroxide worked just fine and I got something of an image; quite good actually. For a direct print onto paper you'd have to coat a thin layer and print it out, then hope it'll stick. It'll be very high contrast since light values will float away.

Btw, I didn't control pH tightly, just added a tiny bit of acid. Sorry, I forgot which one; probably acetic acid, but could have been HCl as well.

There's quite a bit of experimentation going on in this area especially using alternatives to gelatin; e.g. lupin protein etc. See here and browser the various discussions that mention it: https://groups.io/g/altphotolist/topics?sidebar=true

I haven't pursued it yet because for a good continuous tone image you'd either have to build up many layers, or you have to do a carbon transfer process with the exposure done through the base of a transparent tissue support, which always degrades sharpness pretty badly. I'm focusing on DAS now, which is capable of making a single-pass continuous tone print very much like how you'd use dichromate.

 

[imgprojts]

For what it's worth, I've done something similar with ferric ammonium citrate/FAC (so not oxalate). Basically a carbon transfer print, but the thing of course won't transfer because I didn't do anything to seal the surface from oxygen. The hardening in very dilute peroxide worked just fine and I got something of an image; quite good actually. For a direct print onto paper you'd have to coat a thin layer and print it out, then hope it'll stick. It'll be very high contrast since light values will float away.

Btw, I didn't control pH tightly, just added a tiny bit of acid. Sorry, I forgot which one; probably acetic acid, but could have been HCl as well.

There's quite a bit of experimentation going on in this area especially using alternatives to gelatin; e.g. lupin protein etc. See here and browser the various discussions that mention it: https://groups.io/g/altphotolist/topics?sidebar=true

I haven't pursued it yet because for a good continuous tone image you'd either have to build up many layers, or you have to do a carbon transfer process with the exposure done through the base of a transparent tissue support, which always degrades sharpness pretty badly. I'm focusing on DAS now, which is capable of making a single-pass continuous tone print very much like how you'd use dichromate.

I just picked up on something you said here. For carbon to transfer you expose from the side of the transparency so that the transparency protects from oxygen? maybe that is why all my FAC carbon transfer kept floating away, it was always on the surface over uncured gelatin?

 

[koraks]

Yes, if you want to do a Chiba carbon transfer, pour the tissue on a transparent substrate and expose through the base. You can then develop it on the support it's already on. From there, you may or may not be able to transfer it to paper - I never tried. Sandy King has posted on this procedure in his groups.io

 

[imgprojts]

I've seen this process referred to as CarboGel:

Novel Experimental Approaches for Making Pigment Prints - AlternativePhotography.com

After struggling with making Carbon Prints in the late 1990s, Paul A. Lehman explored alternative approaches to making pigment prints.

www.alternativephotography.com

I really need to try this out over the weekend.

 

[koraks]

I've seen this process referred to as CarboGel:

No, that's something else. Also interesting, and it's conceivable that it could be used with FAC sensitizer instead of dichromate.