Chemistry for Albumen Prints

Syed Ali · Mar 2, 2021

Hi folks,
I have done a couple of albumen prints and I love the look of them much more than cyanotypes because of their warm look.

I wanted to ask what other chemicals have folks tried for fixing?

Sodium thio sulfate seems to be the preferred option but is it possible to use the standard chemistry I use for fixing film?

This would be Photographers Formulary TF-4 which contains Ammonium thio sulfate.

Also what about hypo clearing agents, what are the possible options for this, can the standard hypo clear for film work fine over here?

Thanks

awty · Mar 2, 2021

Havent done Albumen yet, but with Vandyke Brown normal fixer can be a little harsher. Best to try yourself and adjust the concentrate of the fixer to suite. Same with Hypo.

Pool shops sell Sodium thio as chlorine stopper. I think you can get Sodium Sulfate as well. Its usually best just to buy the correct stuff from the suppliers of these chemicals to get the best print.

koraks · Mar 3, 2021

awty said:
I think you can get Sodium Sulfate as well.

What would the purpose of sodium sulfate be? I guess you mean sodium sulfite?

Syed Ali said:
Sodium thio sulfate seems to be the preferred option but is it possible to use the standard chemistry I use for fixing film?

This would be Photographers Formulary TF-4 which contains Ammonium thio sulfate.

It will work, but like awty implies, you may need to use a higher dilution. Try 1+20.

Ian Grant · Mar 3, 2021

Don't use an Ammonium Thiosulphate based fixer for Albumen prints it's far too agressive, the Ammonium ion itself is also a mild Solver solvent which helps speed up the rate of fixation in a RApid fixer. Sodium Thiosulphate is very easy to find as it's used to neutralise Sodium Hypochlorite used in swimming pools as PAul says.

Ian

awty · Mar 3, 2021

Yes sodium sulfite, not sulfate or sulphate or sulfide, they're different chemicals.
Pool shops wont know you're talking about if you ask for sodium thiosulphate. Best to ask for chlorine neutraliser and check the ladel.

juan · Mar 3, 2021

I’ve done a good bit of albumen. I agree with Ian - use a thiosulfate fixer, and a dilute one at that.

koraks · Mar 3, 2021

juan said:
a thiosulfate fixer

Only thiosulfate fixers have been discussed in this thread. Rapid fixer is also a thiosulfate fixer - just ammonium thiosulfate instead of sodium thiosulfate.
I personally greatly prefer a dilute ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers for alt. process printing such as salted paper and (if needs be) albumen, as it's much easier to get complete fixing and thus good longevity of the prints. Sodium thiosulfate takes a loooong time to fix completely, especially with albumen. 2x 5 minutes at the very least.
I've seen quite a few people complaining about rapid fixer eating away the image where I had the distinct impression that they were underexposing the prints with negatives with too short a tonal scale, and then underfixing them as the only means to get acceptable contrast in the prints. However, this only works if the prints don't have to be long-term stable.

nmp · Mar 3, 2021

koraks said:
Only thiosulfate fixers have been discussed in this thread. Rapid fixer is also a thiosulfate fixer - just ammonium thiosulfate instead of sodium thiosulfate.
I personally greatly prefer a dilute ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers for alt. process printing such as salted paper and (if needs be) albumen, as it's much easier to get complete fixing and thus good longevity of the prints. Sodium thiosulfate takes a loooong time to fix completely, especially with albumen. 2x 5 minutes at the very least.
I've seen quite a few people complaining about rapid fixer eating away the image where I had the distinct impression that they were underexposing the prints with negatives with too short a tonal scale, and then underfixing them as the only means to get acceptable contrast in the prints. However, this only works if the prints don't have to be long-term stable.

Am I correct in my understanding that rapid fixer also washes out easily, eschewing the need for hypoclear treatment (or may be not as vigorous) and a long wash.

It would be nice if a side-by-side comparison was made regarding the bleaching issue - ammonium thio might be faster bleaching but since it requires less time, perhaps density loss is not dramatically higher (or may be even less) than in sodium thio used fto the same end-point.

Price may be issue too...sodium thio is dirt cheap compared to ammonium thio. I think I will get some for my next saltprinting endeavor, for testing at least.

:Nianjan.

Craig75 · Mar 3, 2021

I used rapid fixer with salt prints when i was too lazy to use sodium thiosulphate.

I cant remember any specific issues - but I only ever did about 20 prints

koraks · Mar 3, 2021

nmp said:
Am I correct in my understanding that rapid fixer also washes out easily, eschewing the need for hypoclear treatment (or may be not as vigorous) and a long wash.

Maybe a little, but I don't think the difference would be very meaningful. Albumen and salt prints will always need rather thorough washing; there's not all that much I feel can be done about this.

Syed Ali · Mar 3, 2021

My biggest concern with doing albumen prints is that I don’t want to maintain a separate set of chemicals to do that, if I can get it done with the same stuff I use to develop film, there would be less bottles I have to keep and then dispose properly once exhausted.

Secondly if there’s any way that I can reduce the time to wash the prints and use less water in the process, that would be excellent.

I’ve started doing a more vigorous wash by pointing my handheld shower head and driving the hypo out that way instead of bathing my prints gently in a tray and swishing it around back and forth. The way to tell whether all the hypo is removed would be to test the runoff against potassium permanganate and see if it changes color, but I don’t have any of that on hand.

The 5 prints that I made in the last batch, all turned out wonderfully. I had all of them sit in my UV exposure box for 10 minutes. One of my prints got too dark so I made a couple more at 9.5 min and 9 min and I was happy with the last one.

One of the prints I’ve framed and put on my wall. If it darkens further due to normal uv from sunlight in the room, it would mean I need to fix it for longer than 5 minutes to remove all the AgCl. Luckily my print on the wall is still good with decent detail and contrast.

I’m also going to look for signs that not all the hypo was removed. When the image deteriorates as a result of that.

Thank you all for your inputs.

AgX · Mar 6, 2021

Sodiumthiosulphate typically vanished as offered small-volume product in the photographic sector.
But Tetenal 1847 meanwhile offers such again as "Variofix Powder".

grain elevator · Mar 6, 2021

Syed Ali said:
My biggest concern with doing albumen prints is that I don’t want to maintain a separate set of chemicals to do that, if I can get it done with the same stuff I use to develop film, there would be less bottles I have to keep and then dispose properly once exhausted.

You're not supposed to use the same working strength fixer for film and paper, IIRC because film can tolerate much higher levels of silver, and I'd also be worried about debris form paper settling on film...

alexanderjmarkow · Mar 7, 2021

I always go with Christopher James chemistry recommendations in his alternative processes textbook

Syed Ali · Mar 10, 2021

alexanderjmarkow said:
I always go with Christopher James chemistry recommendations in his alternative processes textbook

I’ve ordered that book from amazon. Should be a good resource to have.

So far I was following the albumen and salted print book by James Reily which is pretty good.

Chemistry for Albumen Prints

Syed Ali

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Syed Ali

AgX

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Chemistry for Albumen Prints

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