Chemistry disposal? What do folks actually do with spent chemistry?

jlpape said:

Anyone have any idea what the PPM of silver in the developer would be after developing a roll of film?

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<1

I pour all the used chemicals into a plastic pail in the darkroom. When it's near full I dump it on the gravel driveway (we have a septic system), hoping it might kill the weeds. No luck so far.

thebdt said:

The simple, and correct, answer is that dilution is indeed the solution to pollution. Why do you think that the EPA et al. measure pollution and toxicity in terms of parts per thousand, million, billion, etc.

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That's a non-sequitur if ever I've seen one.

The reason the EPA measure pollution in terms of ppth, ppm, and ppb is that some compounds are hazardous at those concentrations. That has nothing to do with "the solution to pollution is dilution"...

I pour exhausted developer (film and paper) down the drain. I use one-shot dilutions of both.

I pour my stop down the drain as well. It's just vinegar or straight water.

Fixer, I pour it into a milk jug and take it to my school's darkroom. I don't do any work in there because I am scared to death someone is going to open the door just as I am opening my paper safe, but I take the chemicals in there.

At home, or when I don't want to take it to the darkroom at school, I put steel wool in the milk jug and pour off the water, leaving the precipitate. It stays until the process repeats itself. I am thinking of making a nice ring out of it once I am 50 or so and have enough of the stuff.

I spoke to the relevent dept of the local authority here (UK) a couple of years ago. They seemed very helpful and knowledgable, and said that there was no problem in pouring "hobby" quantities of used branded photochemicals down the domestic foul sewer (not the rainwater drains).
The guy seemed to understand the chemicals used in photography, and added that any "special" chemicals (e.g. not supplied in the hobby formuations by such as Kodak or Ilford) should be considered separately, and also that any waste concentrates or powder should be taken to the local waste disposal facility.

jlpape said:

I ended up calling my local EPA field office regarding the disposal of photographic chemicals. First of all, he was not impressed with my idea of boiling down the chemicals... surprise, surprise ) Mainly, mixing up chemicals and then bringing up to very high concentrations.

Anyhoo... we then talked about how to dispose of the chemicals, his first suggestion was to take them all to the local recycling "days" where I could dispose of them. Since I was planning on doing this anyhow, I was in agreement. But then I asked about what chemicals I could safely pour down the drain. No surprise he said photo-flo and stop bath if well diluted. Fixer was next and was a definite no-no since I have a septic system. As has been stated here many times, silver will kill the bacteria in the tank. Even if I did the steel wool treatment, which he said was quite effective, it was still no-go.

Finally we talked about the developer. He had a concern dumping this down the drain, but it was not the chemical per se. This he said biodegraded quickly and would not be seen in the water supply (aqua-firs). He was concerned that there was silver in the developer, a by-product of the development process. He said that he has a long-standing debate with his neighbor, an avid photographer, on this matter. He admitted that his neighbor has been dumping the developer down the drain for years and has not had a problem.

To be a bit more scientific on this, I said that I would look into the cost of getting the silver tested in my developer. If reasonable, I will assemble two samples. One will be 500ml of XTOL 1+1 after developing a roll of 120 film (Plus-X in my case). Second sample will be Dektol after a week's worth of prints. After I get the results we can then calculate the concentration of silver in the tank, Assume 5 rolls/week (2.5L XTOL 1+1) and 1/2 gal Dektol / week and account for my getting the tank pumped every 3 years and get a maximum silver concentration. He can then find out what the effect will be. I suspect the silver concentration in the developer will be quite low and this would be a non-issue, but would be interesting to see for peace of mind. Anyone have any idea what the PPM of silver in the developer would be after developing a roll of film?

Regards,
Jim

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The problem with boiling is you exchange one kind of pollution for another, in this case your reducing water pollution by increasing air pollution. I doubt there would be much silver in the developer, it's more likely to end up in the rinse or stop bath, fixer is the problem chemical here, a small say 20L drum that you could take to a hazardous waste depot might be an idea for fixers.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is they do not want you to be "treating" hazardous waste. As a private person, you can do it, and they do not like that, but as a business, you can get in a lot of legal trouble if you are treating hazardous waste without the proper licenses.

wogster said:

The problem with boiling is you exchange one kind of pollution for another, in this case your reducing water pollution by increasing air pollution. I doubt there would be much silver in the developer, it's more likely to end up in the rinse or stop bath, fixer is the problem chemical here, a small say 20L drum that you could take to a hazardous waste depot might be an idea for fixers.

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Yes, initially I figured I was evaporating mainly water, but the more I thought about it, the more uneasy I became. I am pretty much going to do what you say above, dump the stop bath and photo-flo down the drain. I talked to a lab here and for $25 they will give me the amount of silver in the developer, cheap for peace of mind. I suspect this will be a very small amount, well below worrying about. Once I get that number, I will dump the developer as well. The fixer I will take to the recycling agency for proper processing. It will also be a very manageable quantity.
Thanks

Chazzy said:

But wouldn't the toner normally be depleted or nearly so before one threw it away?

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There is a very interesting article on getting the most and best use from selenium toner here at:

www.heylloyd.com/technicl/seuse.htm

He has changed my thinking on KRST.

He also has other very good technical articles on his site. Very worth reading.

C

Kirk Keyes said:

No, that's not the problem. The problem is they do not want you to be "treating" hazardous waste. As a private person, you can do it, and they do not like that, but as a business, you can get in a lot of legal trouble if you are treating hazardous waste without the proper licenses.

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Commercial hazardous waste processors are required by law to have their people trained properly, and their equipment and process inspected by government inspectors. These days they can't just put barrels of chemicals onto a truck and drive it over the county line and dump it into the canal. These days the idea is to reclaim as much as they can, and render as much of the remainder as inert as possible.

White B&W photo chemicals are pretty tame stuff, not sure about some of the colour stuff, however silver is a biological toxin, in fact some of the polyester cold weather gear uses silver threads to keep bacteria from making the material smell. This is good because the treatment lasts as long as the material does, I have 2 pair of long johns made of the stuff.

Hey, if I drop a bucket of spent fixer off at the hazardous waste depot, and it contains 25¢ worth of silver, I don't really care that the city gets the 25¢, because for my 25¢ I get the peace of mind of knowing that it will be treated properly, that's a pretty good bargain. If one uses the Ilford washing method, then the wash water can go into the treatment bucket as well, and that means most of the silver can be reclaimed.

wogster said:

White B&W photo chemicals are pretty tame stuff, not sure about some of the colour stuff, however silver is a biological toxin, in fact some of the polyester cold weather gear uses silver threads to keep bacteria from making the material smell. This is good because the treatment lasts as long as the material does, I have 2 pair of long johns made of the stuff.

Hey, if I drop a bucket of spent fixer off at the hazardous waste depot, and it contains 25¢ worth of silver, I don't really care that the city gets the 25¢, because for my 25¢ I get the peace of mind of knowing that it will be treated properly, that's a pretty good bargain. If one uses the Ilford washing method, then the wash water can go into the treatment bucket as well, and that means most of the silver can be reclaimed.

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Wogster,
Washing you silver encrusted long johns may have the same effect as flushing your fixer. Link


Terry

For b/w, I dump everything except fixer. I do not dump stop bath without first mixing it with developer. Kodak recommends this as it is easier on your plumbing.

With fixer, I cut the top off one of the 2.5 gal. water bottles with the spout and I have a few sheets of fine steel wool hot glued to the inside of the container to hold them in place over the spout. I pour spent volumes of fixer into 1 gal. plastic water bottles until they are full. Then, I dump the gallon into the 2.5 gal. filter and run the gallon through the steel wool a couple of times before dumping the fixer mixed with developer.

Everything of which I am unsure (toners, intensifiers), I just keep and take to a hazmat roundup.

For color, I dump developer, treat fixer the same as b/w, keep bleach, and take stabilizer to the hazmat roundup.

Without risking a major pi**ing contest, I'll advise everyone to investigate - a good place to START would be your local fire Department. I had an interesting eyeball-to-eyeball conversation with my local FD. After reviewing ALL of the chemistry (I have all of the MSDS (sp?) sheets)I have on hand, and 'possible extrapolated volumes' ... the final answer was,
"Frankly, Ed ... we don't give a damn."
Next, your local plumbers. A great part of modern plumbing deals directly with hazardous wastes.

Now - the strongest caveats I can do...

This is severely dependent on geography, and the sensitivities of the local populations, and photographers themselves. Be careful of encountering "small" people who will make up rules ... I had one who told me that my shortstop - white vinegar diluted 1:4 with water - was **HAZARDOUS**!!!
I questioned him about the "straight" white vinegar I could put on a salad - No ... that was all right - it is not *SHORTSTOP*!!!

Anyway ... INVESTIGATE. Preserving the environment is motive enough to be cautious of chemical wastes - e.g. surplus salad dressings - and you MIGHT find ways to save money and effort in not having to fight problems that in reality do not exist.

Ed is right, in Canada you can't vent R134a refrigerant from your car to repair it, it must be recovered by a licensed technician. But you can go to the local electronic/camera/bigbox stationary retailer and buy a case of superduster/canned air/freezit which is R134a and blow it all into the air with no problems. Label the same chemical as a refrigerant, and you need a license to purchase it.

Bob-D659 said:

But you can go to the local electronic/camera/bigbox stationary retailer and buy a case of superduster/canned air/freezit which is R134a and blow it all into the air with no problems.

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That's true, but if you want to be a green electronics person, you buy the can that has tetrafluoroethane in it. It's not a freon/CFC.

Bob-D659 said:

Ed is right, in Canada you can't vent R134a refrigerant from your car to repair it, it must be recovered by a licensed technician. But you can go to the local electronic/camera/bigbox stationary retailer and buy a case of superduster/canned air/freezit which is R134a and blow it all into the air with no problems. Label the same chemical as a refrigerant, and you need a license to purchase it.

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The car industry has to recapture refrigerant because originally they used a chemical called dichlorodifluoromethane or R12, this is a member of the
chlorofluorocarbon family and can harm the ozone layer and can no longer be legally manufactured. Unless labelled it's hard to know if the refrigerant in a cars A/C is using R12 or R134a ( tetrafluoroethane ), although they have not used R12 since 1995, it had to be recaptured due to environmental impact, so they needed the equipment to recapture it, it made sense to make the rules the same for both refrigerants because it made sure that all R12 containing systems would have the gas recaptured. There are still a lot of old non-automotive A/C units and refrigerators out there that contain R12, considering that they can last 25 years or more, although it they are repaired then they are subject to the same rules as automotive air conditioning units.

Now of course it's been determined that R134a has a global warming potential and is being phased out to be replaced with something else.

One of my photo instructors owned a commercial photo lab for a number of years. I would guess in excess of 20 years since he is now drawing social security. He requested an inspection of his operation by EPA. The inspector told him that his volume of waste was too small to be of concern if poured down the drain and hence to the municipal sewer treatment plant.

Hi Ed

I hope you are doing well, it seems that the only time you and I are present on the same thread it is on this topic.
When I first joined APUG this was a hot topic, and I believe about 1 1/2 years ago we were on a similar thread.


I own a small custom lab here in Toronto,
We have a commercial silver recovery unit for bleach, fix, dumping.
The machine is provided by Enviroment Control Systems out of Barrie Ont Canada.
This machine is provided free of charge and their staff come to my shop three to four times a year to maintain the machine and take away the pods that hold the silver.
They do this for hundreds of customers in the GTA that have used fix dumping needs.
It must be profitable as they have been doing this for over 7 years now for me , I owned a unit before that and at that time each year I would get a nice gift of cash for the sludge.
The problem was maintaining the machine , so I am happy with ECS doing it for me.
Anyone in the GTA with used fix is more than welcome to use this machine just make an appointment and bring over the stuff. The Toronto Camera Club has been doing this the last few years, but I haven't seen Mike for a while and maybe he is no longer a member.
For those in the GTA with darkrooms and dumping your fix I would say that you are flying under the radar and at some point the city will drop in with a visit and want to do readings at the floor drain of the darkroom. If you do not have a silver recovery unit and or a set plan in place believe me your darkroom will be shut down. The people I met from the city were ex photographer/printers and are not easily bambooozallled.


This visit did happen to Elevator , and I believe most commercial operations in the city. At that time we passed with flying colours and since we have continued with this system of waste management we believe we are within City guidelines. ** If we were dumping fix down the drain and not recovering we would have been shut down until appropriate measures were taken.

For those with copper pipe drains , that have set up spaces in commercial buildings or even in your own home, from long past experience, the fix seems to attack the copper and rot it away. Once a landlord catches on to this you will be in for a whole can of whoopass, paying for a complete drain system that is behind your darkroom drain.
I know there are a lot of plastics in the systems now , but in most large Urban Areas there are lots of old building's that are still copper and cheap rent is cheap rent . I know this as my first darkroom was in an old building, lots of space, lots of ambience, and holy shit batman when the drains below me rotted and poured into the tenant below, things got really nasty.

Moral of this story, not only do I believe that fix is harmful to the enviournment and I would not want to be downstream of a five gallon dump of the stuff, but as well the used fix attacks certain plumbing systems and you may find yourself liable for damage .


Now listen Ed , I apologize for any insults I threw your way the last two times this issue came up, I am older now and more mature. So be easy on me.



Bob

hi bob

thank you for your response.
here where i live the clean water commissions
will do the same thing, shut you down and fine you until
you are compliant. i know of someone fined 10K / day
it was not a pretty site.

the reason why the copper pipes rotted out is because the
silver plated out onto the copper, and the copper went into the fixer
solution as it was going down the pipes. less and less copper remained
on the pipe and eventually it ate threw.

i know you do a fair amount of toning &C for your clients. do you put your
grey water and spent toners into the same system as your other chemistry?


john

ed -

it isn't the fire department you need to speak with, but the local water/sewer commission
and the mass dem. the fire department has nothing to do with wastewater management,
or environmental conservation, and they don't have anything do do with enforcement of environmental laws.


john

Hi John
Spent Selenium is put into the recovery machine.
I do dump the Sepia, Gold is used as long as I can and then put into the recovery machine, I am not sure what would happen if the Sepia is put through . Potassium Ferri and bromide for the bleach and Sodium Sulphide for the toner . I would be interested on what is safe for these as I am now doing mural prints and my usage of chems has increased rather than decreased over past years.

My position is one that I am trying not to pump anything down the sewer systems that is harmful to others and through painful experience the costs of fixing copper drain systems, that I think this forum should be aware of.

There are people on this site with much , much knowledge of chemicals and usages and I would defer to their wisdom.* I am only speaking on what I do and the current laws in my province regarding the materials I work with , I have no credentials to make me an expert on such matters*

Ian Grant comes to mind and PE may have definate opinions on chemical waste and their effects down the pipe so to speak and I would put faith in their wisdom over mine.


Bob

jnanian said:

hi bob

thank you for your response.
here where i live the clean water commissions
will do the same thing, shut you down and fine you until
you are compliant. i know of someone fined 10K / day
it was not a pretty site.

the reason why the copper pipes rotted out is because the
silver plated out onto the copper, and the copper went into the fixer
solution as it was going down the pipes. less and less copper remained
on the pipe and eventually it ate threw.

i know you do a fair amount of toning &C for your clients. do you put your
grey water and spent toners into the same system as your other chemistry?


john

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jnanian said:

ed -

it isn't the fire department you need to speak with, but the local water/sewer commission
and the mass dem. the fire department has nothing to do with wastewater management,
or environmental conservation, and they don't have anything do do with enforcement of environmental laws.


john

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I talked to my local DEC... very knowledgeable person and had a lot of good advice.

Bob Carnie said:

For those with copper pipe drains , that have set up spaces in commercial buildings or even in your own home, from long past experience, the fix seems to attack the copper and rot it away.

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Holy crap - copper sewer pipes!? I can't afford that. My 100 year old house has cast iron sewer pipes. It's going to take a long time to corrode through those, especially with the low volumes I use in a non-commercial darkroom.

jnanian said:

ed -

it isn't the fire department you need to speak with, but the local water/sewer commission and the mass dem. the fire department has nothing to do with wastewater management,
or environmental conservation, and they don't have anything do do with enforcement of environmental laws.

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Yourl local Fire Department will be the "First Responders" for toxic or perceived toxic chemical spills. Also, in case of a fire, they are usually interested in WHAT is burning. I used to work in a shop where there was a LOT of magnesium machining. We had a magnesium fire - and conveying the information about what was burning - to well-meaning personnel with fire hoses full of **WATER** in their hands was of prime and immediate necessity.

The agencies involved will have different names (understatement of the year...) and differing concepts of their involvement.

Now... finger smacking time ... *NOWHERE* did I mean to infer ANY degree of "exclusivity"!! I talked to MANY people; EPA; Environmental Police, Contracters, Plumbers ... spent a few hours bouncing around the 'net.

The least reliable, as far as I'm concerned were those most directly concerned: EPA, etc. The most reliable (verified all over the place) were the Plumbers. Hazardous waste procedure is of their prime concern - and an important part of the licensing testing.

I'd encourage intensive investigation - talking to the Oracle at Delphi might be interesting.

While dilution is no solution to silver as a pollutant, isn't diluting any stuff that you do dump a way to minimize corrosive impact on plumbing etc? I can't imagine dumping straight solutions down the drain. I always dilute.

C