Chemistry disposal? What do folks actually do with spent chemistry?

With "Earth Day" rapidly approaching, I wonder how others dispose of their used chemistry. I will soon be on septic and have some concerns about what, if anything, I let go down the drain that has come from my darkroom. My question, however is not specific to septic users, but rather is a general question to the group. How do you get rid of your used chemistry? Obviously my concerns are with how the chemistry I use impacts the environment? Some of what I plan to do will be alternative processes, so I'd also love to hear from folks with those interests. Bill Barber

See Kodak Environmental Services part of their website.

The only issue of any magnitude (including legal) in municipal sewers is the silver in spent fixer.

Septic systems are touchier, since you don't want to hurt the beneficial microbes.

I had a concern with the chemicals I use. It turns out that my county in NY has a resource recovery agency that will take the spent chemicals from a darkroom and recycle / properly dispose of them. You might want to ask around in your community. Start with local refuse disposal companies.

I'm on septic now and I simply place my used chemicals in old 5lb coffee containers and place in the back yard (an old dog house put to some use) to evaporate.

Here in Germany we are mad about assorting & recycling which makes us have many, many heaps at home… (just counted 11…)

Included in our municipal fee for waste disposal is a collecting service for chemical waste. Here a collecting truck comes to a certain place in the communty twice a year up to once a month (depending on community). Alternatively one can bring ones chemical waste to a county collecting place which is openend 6 days a week. However for this daily accessibility a fee is asked. One has to bring in the chemical in a container in which it will stay until being recycled or incinerated.

Disposal of any photographic processing bath (independent of volume) via the sewer is forbidden by law in Germany (though not much people know about that, including part of the `industry´).

My suspicion, although I have no way of proving it, is that most of us just put everything down the drain and hope that we don't harm the environment in the process. Perhaps what we do is tell ourselves that the little bit that we are doing isn't really going to do that much damage. What I had hoped for was some innovative ideas (like Bob's) about how to deal with the issue. I really don't know what the answer is and hope that some more answers will pop up on this thread. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one out there who has a concern about my impact on the planet and has done something about it as it relates to their photographic chemicals. Bill Barber

So your gut is telling you that spent developer and fixer does harm to the environment?

disposal

Another thing is the amount of water that is being used dilutes anything that is washed off the print. My water is running constantly from the time I do a test strip until I clean up trays. I try to keep as green as possible though. Vinagar stop etc maximum dilutions. (I have lots of time to develop and fix) Use developers that last. I'm cheap too so ther more water the better.

Silver is a real problem in sewer systems - both it (and mercury) are very toxic in small doses.
When I put the darkroom in 12 years ago, the county came out. They were happy I wasn't doing color (the waste is also very toxic) and that I had a silver recovery system to remove the silver (sacrificial metal plus electric current....you can tell when the silver is "done"..the current drops to zero. They didn't care about B&W developer nor post-silver recovered fixer, nor stop bath... and I don't put the developer for Platinum/Paladium down the drain - its kept nearly forever. The chelating agents used in the clearing baths sequester out the metals and even the iron....not an issue. Someday when the developer needs to be disposed of, I'll drive it down to the to one of the recycling days...

So, bottom line - keep the silver out of the drain. You can eliminate the silver from fixer by replacement -- simply stir in some zinc powder or steel wool or iron filings....you'll see the silver drop out....filter and you can dispose once the reaction stops (iron or zinc in the waste is not an issue)

..

Don12x20 said:

Silver is a real problem in sewer systems - both it (and mercury) are very toxic in small doses.
When I put the darkroom in 12 years ago, the county came out. They were happy I wasn't doing color (the waste is also very toxic) and that I had a silver recovery system to remove the silver (sacrificial metal plus electric current....you can tell when the silver is "done"..the current drops to zero. They didn't care about B&W developer nor post-silver recovered fixer, nor stop bath... and I don't put the developer for Platinum/Paladium down the drain - its kept nearly forever. The chelating agents used in the clearing baths sequester out the metals and even the iron....not an issue. Someday when the developer needs to be disposed of, I'll drive it down to the to one of the recycling days...

So, bottom line - keep the silver out of the drain. You can eliminate the silver from fixer by replacement -- simply stir in some zinc powder or steel wool or iron filings....you'll see the silver drop out....filter and you can dispose once the reaction stops (iron or zinc in the waste is not an issue)

..

Click to expand...

Forgot to mention -- the concern with silver or mercury is that it is extremely toxic to the microbes they use to "digest" the waste at the local sewer treatment plant. And yes, they can trace it back through the sewer....so don't dump it down even if you dilute it with lots of water....

Here in Denmark, we have the same arrangements as in Germany.... I drop my chemical waist in 2 1/2 or 5 litters plastic containers, mark them with what is in and place them in a locker in the apartment building , where I live... Then it automatically taken care of.... this service is free....

From my 10th grade ecology class:

"The solution to pollution is not dilution".

Thanks for the silver tips D-12x20.

Too bad it isn't easy to recover silver then make alt-process silver compounds again...

I remember that last year PE stated that he had some blueprint in mind concerning mixed-bed ion-exchangers and carbon filters to allow users to treat their waste on themselves.


BTW Murray, I really like that alliteration...
I'll add: neither evaporation....

chemicaL disposal

another thing is safe disposal. I DO NOT rely on midnight disposal practices. I can sleep @ night.

Hmm...silver is "very toxic in small doses" to microbes...could someone do some math on this? Don12x20: how much silver do you recover on a monthly basis (that would otherwise be released)? How much would it take to slow the digestion of waste in a single septic system, and how much for a treatment plant for a town or city? Does anyone know the "toxicity" level in parts per million? And what else gets pumped into septic systems or the municipal system that hampers bacterial digestion? How much lubricating oil, what quantity of phosphates from laundry, bleach, paint, etc.

I think we need some numbers and probably some perspective before we go making a mountain out of a very tiny molehill.

It's the accumulation together with that "else" that is the problem.

Of course I wonder why it is probihibited to dumb my fixer via the drain but the same time I'm allowed to clean my bathroom with chlorine bleach...



I use to swim in a lake which is feeded by a waste water cleaning plant. Thus I'm probably most involved of all of you...

David William White said:

Hmm...silver is "very toxic in small doses" to microbes...could someone do some math on this? Don12x20: how much silver do you recover on a monthly basis (that would otherwise be released)? How much would it take to slow the digestion of waste in a single septic system, and how much for a treatment plant for a town or city? Does anyone know the "toxicity" level in parts per million? And what else gets pumped into septic systems or the municipal system that hampers bacterial digestion? How much lubricating oil, what quantity of phosphates from laundry, bleach, paint, etc.

I think we need some numbers and probably some perspective before we go making a mountain out of a very tiny molehill.

Click to expand...

I'll side with David on this.

Silver recovery/fixer disposal

I work in a darkroom on septic and use the following procedure with good results:

At the end of the printing session, developer and stop are mixed and dumped down the drain. Normally they are both close to exhaustion. Never a problem with the septic system.

Fixer is collected in large containers (I have some 10 gallon chemical containers). When nearly full, I take them to one of the few remaining photolabs. They gladly dispose of it for me in their silver recovery system. I offered to pay, they declined. This happens a few to several times a year, depending on my volume.

Selenium toner is filtered, replenished and reused. Never dumped! I have two one-gal. containers of different dilutions that have been going strong this way for more than three years. Never a problem.

Film chemicals are dealt with similarly. The small amount of ferricyanide I use goes down the drain too. No problems.

That said, although I sometimes make a few hundred runs (5-7 prints plus test strips etc.) of prints from 8x10 to 16x20 each year, I do not consider the volume to be significantly large. For those who do larger amounts of work, it might pay to keep an eye on septic system performance.

And yes, I have read the Kodak (and other) materials on disposal of photo chemicals and believe the above to be safe, effective and environmentally sound.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

www.DoremusScudder.com

Hmm...silver is "very toxic in small doses" to microbes...could someone do some math on this? Don12x20: how much silver do you recover on a monthly basis (that would otherwise be released)? How much would it take to slow the digestion of waste in a single septic system, and how much for a treatment plant for a town or city? Does anyone know the "toxicity" level in parts per million? And what else gets pumped into septic systems or the municipal system that hampers bacterial digestion? How much lubricating oil, what quantity of phosphates from laundry, bleach, paint, etc.

I think we need some numbers and probably some perspective before we go making a mountain out of a very tiny molehill.

Click to expand...

Silver has an Antimicrobial effect: True.
I've done a quick search on the effects on Google, and the exact MIC (Minimum Inhibitory Concentration) depends on whats in the brew, and the bacteria you use to test.

Typical results:

The anti-microbial activities in terms of minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) for the silver nanoparticle composites against Escherichia coli and Candida albicans were assayed in agar gel, and the results show that MIC values for silver nanoparticle composites are 14.1 mg(Ag) l-1 and 28.1 mg(Ag) l-1 for Escherichia coli and Candida albicans respectively, which are comparable to the value for colloidal nanosilver.

Click to expand...

Silver is also an approved preservative (In the EU) for cosmetic products. Limit here is 2000ppm in product.

The main beef with silver is that it stays in one piece and can't be metabolised by bacteria once its below the MIC.
So, for my 10p's worth is a home developer spilling half a pint of spent fixer down the drain going to kill the sewage works? No. Is a major photo processing lab spilling a couple of barrels going to cause a problem? Oh yes!
Anyone developing and fixing a lot of film does have an incentive to recover fixer. It pays to do so, what with the price of silver these days.
Thats why your local D&P house are more than willing to take a few litres of spent fixer for free. You are in fact paying them cash in the form of liquid in a bottle. Silver is worth $18/Ounce at the moment, and is likely to rise a lot in the near future

David William White said:

Hmm...silver is "very toxic in small doses" to microbes...could someone do some math on this? Don12x20: how much silver do you recover on a monthly basis (that would otherwise be released)? How much would it take to slow the digestion of waste in a single septic system, and how much for a treatment plant for a town or city? Does anyone know the "toxicity" level in parts per million? And what else gets pumped into septic systems or the municipal system that hampers bacterial digestion? How much lubricating oil, what quantity of phosphates from laundry, bleach, paint, etc.

I think we need some numbers and probably some perspective before we go making a mountain out of a very tiny molehill.

Click to expand...

Frankly I don't need to do the numbers and don't really care about your needs - I did what it took to get the inspection completed and approved by the local county inspectors. You'll have to do whatever you feel is appropriate.

And they didn't care about dumping Selenium toner down the drain -- their comment was that it would either be plated out on the iron pipes downwhere downstream or chelated by the organic material at the plant.

The only thing they were concerned with was Silver, Mercury and Color Processing chemicals.

I wonder why the sewage works doesn't have a silver recovery unit? :confused:

My original question was rather general as I had a curiosity about how folks got rid of their chemistry. The septic system is ultimately the question I will need to address. This is an important one as whatever goes in my septic will eventually end up in the aquifer that provides water for me and my neighbors. Guess it gets a little more personal at that level. It is a little easier to connect the dots when one is living out in the "sticks". Few of us who live in Houston think that what we bath in and drink is what got flushed in Dallas a few days ago. Yes, I filter my drinking water now. When I move to the "sticks" my primary water supply will be filtered rainwater, although I will have a well for back up and I don't want it to be a weak dillution of my chemistry. Bill Barber

A little searching on the internet yields...a lot of concern for the effluent from dental offices (no surprise here! - you all know what silver is used for, and lead is in the bitewings for dental xrays)

"Silver reclamation and lead disposal both fall under EPA jurisdiction since both lead and silver are "hazardous wastes" when "discarded". The EPA regulation that deals with identification of hazardous waste of this type is 40 CFR 261. It is included in the EPA Hazardous Waste regulations in a group of 41 such materials referred to as TCLP (Toxic Characteristic Leachate Procedure) wastes. The threshold concentrations for solutions and solids containing silver or lead are 5mg/liter or .0005%. Therefore, very little solution is necessary to produce a hazardous waste. Both lead and silver have a hazardous waste exemption for reclamation. If the materials are reclaimed they are subject to a less stringent regulation by the EPA."

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/news/regulatory/3100/40CFR261.html
shows
Selenium at 1mG/L
Mercury at 0.2mG/L
No mention of Pd or Pt.

Now all you have to do is a little quantitative chemisty to determine your concentration and how much dilution.

But Kodak is pretty conservative about septic systems.... (and if you are on well water, what you stick in the ground will often return to you, depending on your aquafer depth and distance from the leaching field... http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=4218&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=10989

have fun....

David William White said:

Hmm...silver is "very toxic in small doses" to microbes...could someone do some math on this? Don12x20: how much silver do you recover on a monthly basis (that would otherwise be released)? How much would it take to slow the digestion of waste in a single septic system, and how much for a treatment plant for a town or city? Does anyone know the "toxicity" level in parts per million? And what else gets pumped into septic systems or the municipal system that hampers bacterial digestion? How much lubricating oil, what quantity of phosphates from laundry, bleach, paint, etc.

I think we need some numbers and probably some perspective before we go making a mountain out of a very tiny molehill.

Click to expand...

david

whether it is a mountain out of a molehill,
in some places silver is considered a heavy metal
and against the law to pour used fixer down the drain.
i can not speak for where you live, but where i live
they will fine people lots of money for dumping used fixer.
i know of people who were fined lots of money, and it is no joke.

this thread comes up ( or one just like it ) every few months,
and there are always people who suggest it is just a myth
that used fixer down the drain is bad for the environment, septic, or sewer,
that environmentalists are evil, and governments and governmental agencies
are foolish, for suggesting the dumping heavy metals in the environment is bad.
the argument goes on and on and on about how it is not a problem,
and there are plenty of worse things to pour down the drain
( household cleaners, detergents &C &C &C ) and it is foolish to think that
any used fixer down the drain is a bad thing.

(yawn)

there are close to 26,000 people who are members of apug ( probably more than that
if you include "the lurker" &C ) and if everyone dumped a gallon of spent fixer down the drain
or in the scrub grass, or creek or ... every other week
it adds up. if we are going to be using photochemicals, we should
use them, and dispose of them responsibly.

i have all my used chemicals hauled away.

Dave Miller said:

I wonder why the sewage works doesn't have a silver recovery unit? :confused:

Click to expand...

Lets see if we can answer that one...

Two methods -- and whichever one you choose has to work on ALL the incoming sewage...you don't know where the darkrooms are...

1) application of electric current with sacrificial metal.
Answer: Higher electric bills at the waste management unit, even if no silver present. You'd have to hold waste for a while. Our local plant tries to keep it moving through the system since there isn't a holding tank and they get fined if they release untreated waste due to overflow

2) Replacement cartridges of either iron or zinc through which all the sewage must flow..
choose one of these answers that you like:
Answer 1: Awful lot of stuff coming down the pipes that isn't liquid. Stuff like waste toilet paper, turds that are solid, condoms, etc. Do YOU want to clean out/replace a cartridge every so often (and just how often?)
Answer 2: Iron (steel wool) is the best and cheapest. But what else besides silver reacts with steel wool? ....any oxygen in the incoming waste....which means you will be mostly be creating rust.

And no, mixing zinc powder and stirring the resulting sewage doesn't work either. It drops out in the settling tanks where the solids would accumulate.

So it was a good question, but the logistics at the sewer plant intake don't make sense due to volume and lack of an economic means for that volume.

(And also ask why should every sewage user pay for the special users to dump this? )


One more highlight on this issue -- Kodak used to run a bunch of lines at the Page Mill plant (Palo Alto) that included kodachrome. They had an efficient silver recover system on the outlet. But their volume was such that silver at the outlet of the treatment plant next to San Francisco Bay wasn't good enough to meet environmental standards. This resulted in Kodak closing the plant at this location back in the 1980's. (maybe someone inside Kodak could confirm -- that's just what I was told at the drop counter at the plant when they closed).