Chemical Guru's Needed

Bob Carnie · May 19, 2006

I am about to start an extremely large project and I need some help from some of the Chemical Experts here.

Project is based on 30 x40 murals on Ilford Gallerie grade 4.
Currently I use Dectol , but I am finding this paper and Dectol give me too cold of a print.
I would like to mix my own Dev and Fix as I require 10 gallons of Dev stock solution and 20 gallons of fix stock solution on hand at any one time.

Could someone recommend a warmer developer and its components to mix to stock.
As well I require a non hardening rapid fix formulation to mix to stock.
As well a basic formulation for a hypo clear mix would be appreciated.
I will be doing extensive toning after fix therefore the need for non hardining.
Any help would be appreciated

edz · May 19, 2006

Bob Carnie said:
Project is based on 30 x40 murals on Ilford Gallerie grade 4.
Currently I use Dectol , but I am finding this paper and Dectol give me too cold of a print.

Use a warmer developer. This is subjective territory so...

I would like to mix my own Dev and Fix as I require 10 gallons of Dev stock solution and 20 gallons of fix stock solution on hand at any one time.

No problem.. get an electric drill and a 10 gallon drum.

Could someone recommend a warmer developer and its components to mix to stock.

A question of taste.. Given the volumes I'd probably go with an MQ (Metol/hydroquinone) or Metol/Vitamin-C developer.

As well I require a non hardening rapid fix formulation to mix to stock.

Buy a barrel of C-41 minilab fixer (from Fuji-Hunt, Champion or..). You can't make it yourself cheaper..

As well a basic formulation for a hypo clear mix would be appreciated.

Get a big sack of Sodium Sulfite and mix a 2% or so solution. One can alternatively use a 5% solution of carbonate (Sodium or Ammonium) and it'll work too but Sodium Sulfite works better.. especially with the above neutral fixer..

Lachlan Young · May 19, 2006

edz said:
Buy a barrel of C-41 minilab fixer (from Fuji-Hunt, Champion or..). You can't make it yourself cheaper..

What sort of dilution are you using of C41 fix for B&W papers?

Thanks,

Lachlan

fschifano · May 19, 2006

I'm currently using Kodak's C-41 fixer for films and papers. For film, I use it diluted as directed by the package specs. For paper, I dilute the film strength fixer with an equal part of water. At my paper strength, it will clear a piece of film leader in about 2 minutes.

Before you go out and try a different paper developer, try using Dektol at a higher dilution rate. I've gotten a noticeably warmer tone with some papers by usisng Dektol diluted 1+4 from stock. It also helps a bit if you mix in some old used working solution. Try it out on some smaller prints to see if it will work for you.

Tom Hoskinson · May 19, 2006

Bob Carnie said:
I am about to start an extremely large project and I need some help from some of the Chemical Experts here.

Project is based on 30 x40 murals on Ilford Gallerie grade 4.
Currently I use Dectol , but I am finding this paper and Dectol give me too cold of a print.
I would like to mix my own Dev and Fix as I require 10 gallons of Dev stock solution and 20 gallons of fix stock solution on hand at any one time.

Could someone recommend a warmer developer and its components to mix to stock.
As well I require a non hardening rapid fix formulation to mix to stock.
As well a basic formulation for a hypo clear mix would be appreciated.
I will be doing extensive toning after fix therefore the need for non hardining.
Any help would be appreciated

1. Ilford ID-78 is an excellent Phenidone/Hydroquinone Warm Tone Paper Developer. The formula is here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The image tone can be made warmer by increasing the amount of Potassium Bromide up to 2-3 times.

2. Ryuji Suzuki's DS-15 Paper Developer is a Warm Toned Metol/Ascorbic Acid formulation: http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/print-dev-recommend.html#t003

3. I recommend you use a non-hardening Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer. I personally use Ryuji Suzukis Neutral Rapid Fixer formulation which is posted in the APUG Chemical Recipes: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) You can find bulk Ammonium Thiosulfate (and any other photo chemicals needed) at JD Photochem in Quebec. One liter of 60% Ammonium Thiosulfate makes 5 liters of Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fixer.

4. For a simple and effective Hypo Clearing Agent, dissolve 25 grams of Sodium Sulfite per liter of water.

dancqu · May 19, 2006

Bob Carnie said:
Could someone recommend a warmer developer ...
I will be doing extensive toning after fix ...
Any help would be appreciated

A warmer developer with extensive toning after ...

Perhaps the proper toner will supply all the warmth
desired. Nelson's Gold will produce warmth and likely
there are others. Likely you have selenium in mind.
You've some testing to do before committing. Dan

Bob Carnie · May 20, 2006

Hi Folks
thank-you for your answers to date.

the reason for the warmer developer is I do not like the coldness of the print as it is un-toned.* quite a number of the final prints will be untoned or slightly toned with selinum.
The project will be ongoing and will need to satisfy a variety of different photographers and their images to this paper as well as toning techniques.
I now know how to get a cold image with this paper and dectol, I want to move forward with a few more options of image *look* without changing the paper.
Right now my papers of choice for this application are Ilford Warmtone and Agfa Classic. Agfa stock will be gone from my inventory this year and I want to give Gallery 4 a go.
Therefore the need for a *different-warmer* developer if possible , that I can mix from scratch.
Any more suggestions would be appreciated.

I do have a couple of large mixing units for the chemicals.

lamda · May 20, 2006

Alkaline fixers have a reputation of washing out of paper and film much faster than acid fixers. If you were to use alkaline fixer, you might be able to eliminate the hypo clearing agent step, but you would have to test to see how long to wash. This would also involve changing from an acid stop bath to a water rinse between developer and fixer.

Tom Hoskinson · May 20, 2006

lamda said:
Alkaline fixers have a reputation of washing out of paper and film much faster than acid fixers. If you were to use alkaline fixer, you might be able to eliminate the hypo clearing agent step, but you would have to test to see how long to wash. This would also involve changing from an acid stop bath to a water rinse between developer and fixer.

pH buffered neutral fixers (like Ryuji Suzuki's) work very well with a water rinse (instead of an acid stop bath) and work ok with mildly acidic stop baths (like citric acid) as well.

Tom Hoskinson · May 20, 2006

One additional thought. It is the incorporation of ammonium ion in a fixer that enables rapid fixing and the formation of water soluble chemical complexes during the fixing process, which results in efficient washing properties, post fixing.

Most (but not all) commercial rapid fixers are based on Ammonium Thiosulfate. These fixers may (or may not) be alkaline depending on what else is in the recipe.

dancqu · May 20, 2006

Bob Carnie said:
Hi Folks:
the reason for the warmer developer is I do not like
the coldness of the print as it is un-toned. Quite a
number of the final prints will be untoned or ...
Any more suggestions would be appreciated.

Much talked of recent as a warm tone developer is ID-78
which is ID-62 plus additional bromide. So, ID-62 and play
with the bromide levels.

I've not gotten around to it yet but long lived, warmth,
and Ansco 130 appear to go hand in hand. Give it or Adams'
version a try. His allows contrast control.

Such large prints. Be processing one at a time? Dan

edz · May 20, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
3. I recommend you use a non-hardening Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer. I personally use Ryuji Suzukis Neutral Rapid Fixer formulation which is posted in the APUG Chemical Recipes: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) You can find bulk Ammonium Thiosulfate (and any other photo chemicals needed) at JD Photochem in Quebec. One liter of 60% Ammonium Thiosulfate makes 5 liters of Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fixer.

And probably more expensive than just using the minilab stuff. I use my fixer somewhat concentrated but even at 1+5 its still under 27 cents per litre of working solution. That's, I think, for most of us hardly a cost issue. If you need a lot you can get the stuff by the barrel and it'll be even cheaper.

Its, I think, quite hard to compete with the prices of minilab chemicals. There is a lot of competition and quantities are significant.

Are these fixers good? YES. They are neutral pH and perfect for B&W processing unless you need an acidic fixer (such as in process chains where you want to use alum hardeners).

Tom Hoskinson · May 20, 2006

dancqu said:
Much talked of recent as a warm tone developer is ID-78
which is ID-62 plus additional bromide. So, ID-62 and play
with the bromide levels.

I've not gotten around to it yet but long lived, warmth,
and Ansco 130 appear to go hand in hand. Give it or Adams'
version a try. His allows contrast control.

Such large prints. Be processing one at a time? Dan

Speaking of variations on the Ilford ID-62 theme, there is also:

Ilford Universal Concentrated Liquid Developer

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ilford Universal Concentrated Liquid Developer was my favorite developer for bromide and chlorobromide enlarging papers for many years (until I switched to the MAS Amidol formula).

To obtain the warmest tones with Ilford Universal Concentrated Liquid Developer, increase the amount of Potassium bromide (add 5 to 10 grams of Potassium Bromide to the concentrate).

Do not add Benzotriazole (it will shift the tones towards cold - blue/black)!

dancqu · May 21, 2006

[QUOTES=Tom Hoskinson]
"It is the incorporation of ammonium ion
in a fixer that enables rapid fixing ..."

That is correct, RAPID. The sodium ion has no affinity
for silver so just takes up space. The ammonium ion
though will complex with silver in the presence of
chlorine, and bromine. The three halides of silver
are considered insoluble; the iodide most of all.

The thiosulfate ion has a much greater affinity for silver
than the ammonium ion. So, in a manor of speaking, it steals
silver from the ammonium ion. Both ammonium and thiosulfate
ions are active in dissolving the silver halides. Both complex
less and less readily in the order chloride, bromide, iodide.

"and the formation of water soluble chemical complexes
during the fixing process, which results in efficient
washing properties, post fixing."

If the ammonium ion played such a large part as you
suggest we would be using ammonium sulfate for fix.
It's affinity for silver in the presence of the iodide
ion is nill and not a great deal more with bromide
present. Thiosulfate itself must be present in
quite some excess to handle silver iodide.

So it falls entirely to the thiosulfate in excess to
handle emulsions which have silver iodide. That
explains the slower fixing of those emulsions
and the larger amount of fixer needed.

The CAPACITY of any fixer with regard to most
paper and film emulsions is actually limited to the
quantity of thiosulfate present. That capacity
most usually exceeds any commercial or
archival volumetric limits. Dan

john_s · May 21, 2006

edz said:
........ I use my fixer somewhat concentrated but even at 1+5 its still under 27 cents per litre of working solution........

Ed, what dilution do you use for (1) film and (2) fibre paper?

I've been using Agfa FX-Universal at about 1+4 for everything. I have enough for a few months. I've got some Kodak Flexicolor Fixer but haven't needed to use it yet. I've noticed that it's about pH=6.2 whereas the Agfa product was pH=7.6 (both figures for concentrate). Will the pH make any difference?

Ryuji · May 24, 2006

lamda said:
Alkaline fixers have a reputation of washing out of paper and film much faster than acid fixers. If you were to use alkaline fixer, you might be able to eliminate the hypo clearing agent step, but you would have to test to see how long to wash. This would also involve changing from an acid stop bath to a water rinse between developer and fixer.

For fiber based prints, and for archival purposes, fixer's fixing capacity is limited to a very small value (10-20 8x10s in a liter) if washing aid is not used. With a washing aid, this can be extended to 40+ prints. This is because of strongly adsorbed silver-thiosulfate complex that is difficult to wash out from the paper without the help of washing aid. When the fixer is fresh, this insoluble intermediate complex doesn't accumulate and it presents little problem.

For more info, you might want to check out the product description page for Silvergrain Clearfix on digitaltruth site. It's an improved version of the fix Tom referred to (for example, you can use water rinse OR acid stop), but you can see some info without buying it anyway.

Ryuji · May 24, 2006

Bob Carnie said:
the reason for the warmer developer is I do not like the coldness of the print as it is un-toned.* quite a number of the final prints will be untoned or slightly toned with selinum.

I think Ilfobrom Galerie is not warmtone to begin with. It would be very difficult to get pleasingly warmtone of acceptable image quality from these emulsions. If you want warmtone, I'd recommend Forte Fortezo or other warmtone stock. Galerie is a good paper but just not warmtone purpose. Agfa MCC (discontinued) is a neutral tone paper but it has slight warmtone bias.

If you HAVE to use Galerie and still try to make it warmtone, I'd suggest to develop it in Dektol 1+2 and use dilute Kodak Brown Toner until you get brown black. If you have access to discontinued Kodak Poly Toner, or if you can mix it from liver of sulfur and selenium powder, this one is more powerful and faster to tone.

Ryuji · May 24, 2006

dancqu said:
The thiosulfate ion has a much greater affinity for silver
than the ammonium ion. So, in a manor of speaking, it steals
silver from the ammonium ion. Both ammonium and thiosulfate
ions are active in dissolving the silver halides. Both complex
less and less readily in the order chloride, bromide, iodide.

However, what you said is not directly related to why ammonium thiosulfate fixer is faster fixing or washing.

Thiosulfate can dissolve silver halides, but at the very first step, it makes an insoluble complex. Indeed, if the concentration of thiosulfate is very small, thiosulfate makes an insoluble compound with silver ion. Same for thiocyanate ion. In order to break this insoluble low order silver-thiosulfate complex, you'll need excess thiosulfate. Ammonium ion can speed up this slow process.

Materials that are very thoroughly fixed are faster to wash than materials that are just cleared. Ammonium ion itself has some washing aid property, and ammonium thiosulfate fixer has additional advantage of more thorough fixation that requires less washing time.

The CAPACITY of any fixer with regard to most
paper and film emulsions is actually limited to the
quantity of thiosulfate present. That capacity
most usually exceeds any commercial or
archival volumetric limits. Dan

No, the processing capacity of any practical thiosulfate fixer is limited by the accumulation of silver-thiosulfate complex in the solution. Rapid fixer at 1+3 and 1+7 dilutions have very similar processing capacity limits when used with RC papers. (But with FB papers, there is another factor in washing, and so the comparison is more complicated.)

lowellh · May 24, 2006

CLAYTON EXTEND plus DEVELOPER for film and paper is highly concentrated and results, on paper, are warm with low contrast but great mid tones. CLAYTON ODORLESS STOP BATH AND FIXER also will make your dark room experience much more pleasant.

dancqu · May 25, 2006

Ryuji said:
For fiber based prints, and for archival purposes,
fixer's fixingcapacity is limited to a very small value
(10-20 8x10s in a liter) if washing aid is not used. With
a washing aid, this can be extended to 40+ prints.

Reads like the now defunct Ilford Archival Sequence.
Ilford set the limit at 10 8x10s without but at 40 8x10s
when followed by their brand hca.

They no longer mention the once famous "Archival
Sequence" with it's 5-10-5 minute, wash, their brand
hca, wash. That sequence followed the ONE minute FILM
strength fix. BUT, they do still recommend the 5-10-5
routine. Now isn't that interesting? Maybe it's a very
good way to wash whatever way one does the fix.

To read Ilford's fix PDFs they are now more in line with
Kodak and now strongly suggest the old tried and true
two-bath fix; for lots of archival prints per liter.

Of course as some know, the whole matter is of no
more than academic interest to me. I use fixer very
dilute one-shot. That guarantees archival results
with a single fix. Film or paper. Dan

Ryuji · May 29, 2006

dancqu said:
Reads like the now defunct Ilford Archival Sequence.
Ilford set the limit at 10 8x10s without but at 40 8x10s
when followed by their brand hca.

I'm not connected to Ilford in any way, but their sequence is still recommended even recently. It is just called by names (sometimes archival sequence, sometimes optimal sequence, etc.).

In addition, I have independently tested many variations of fix-rinse-washaid-wash cycles using some commercial products and my formulae. I also run numerical calculations to compute concentrates of harmful intermediate complexes, etc.

They no longer mention the once famous "Archival
Sequence" with it's 5-10-5 minute, wash, their brand
hca, wash. That sequence followed the ONE minute FILM
strength fix. BUT, they do still recommend the 5-10-5
routine. Now isn't that interesting? Maybe it's a very
good way to wash whatever way one does the fix.

You are confused about the Ilford {Archival, Optimal} sequence. They used to recommend 30 seconds but some paper are barely cleared in 30 seconds so they extended the fix time to 1 minute at some point. I run my tests following 1 min and longer fix time. 1 min fix is completely adequate to fix paper but can be washed down to exceed any reasonable archival standard on residual thiosulfate using any of the recommended sequences (either Ilford's, Kodak's or my recommendations described in Silvergrain Clearfix info sheet). Longer fix time requires longer washing or washing aid time to wash to the same level.

Of course as some know, the whole matter is of no
more than academic interest to me. I use fixer very
dilute one-shot. That guarantees archival results
with a single fix. Film or paper.

It is of more than academic interest. You should make sure that the print is completely fixed and washed to a very small residual level of harmful silver-thiosulfate complex as well as thiosulfate. There are many factors that play roles in this, such as concentration, temperature, agitation, silver-halide composition and crystal structures of the emulsion, etc. It's not a very trivial matter to come up with an ad hoc method that works well with many materials.

dancqu · Jun 6, 2006

[QUOTES=Ryuji]
"You are confused about the
Ilford {Archival, Optimal} sequence."

I am not confused. You are not up to date. The sequence,
referred to by Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the Vortex
as the Ilford Archival Sequence, was introduced in 1981. Ilford's
Hypam and Rapid fixer PDFs no longer mention the sequence. In
fact the word archival is not used. The 5-10-5 minute wash,
hca, wash routine is suggested whatever the fix routine
or dilutions. One minute or two, film or paper dilutions,
one or the two-bath fix, it's all the same; 5-10-5.

"It's not a very trivial matter to come up with an ad hoc
method that works well with many materials."

The very dilute, single bath, archival fix, fits my one-shot
way of processing. The archival part was an unexpected
bonus. Solution silver content is based on an average
paper content of 1.6 grams per square meter. Dan

edz · Jun 6, 2006

dancqu said:
[QUOTES=Ryuji]
"You are confused about the
Ilford {Archival, Optimal} sequence."

I am not confused. You are not up to date. The sequence,
referred to by Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the Vortex
as the Ilford Archival Sequence, was introduced in 1981.

It worked in 1981. Today's papers are cadmium free and iodine richer and won't be reliably fixed in under 20 seconds using "film strength" Hypam. Extending the fixing time allows for more fixer to be absorbed into the paper felt and completely changes the demands upon washing. Short and fast fixing continues to work great with resin coated papers but fibre papers have become, yet again, more complicated. Worse still it seems that washing temperature and the use of something like a sulfite pre-wash are more significant than the length of the wash.

Les McLean · Jun 6, 2006

Bob, the old Kodak D163 is a warm tone dev that is simple and inexpensive to mix yourself. I do think that your choice of Galerie may be flawed and as has already been said, it is not a true warmtone paper. Forte is a good paper but can be very inconsistent which is why I stopped using it and given that this is an ongoing project you are likely to run into frustrations with the inconsistency. I'd give Ilford Warmtone with D163 a try or you could also use Ilford Bromophen which also yields a good warm print colour. You also have an option to warm up papers by adding 10 to 15 ml of a 10% Bromide solution to 1 ltr of working developer. I have also got some excellent warm tones with Zone VI developer and Ilford Warmtone paper. Finally, I have a formula for a developer called OD62 which has produced good warm tones with a warm tone paper, if you want to try it please let me know and I'l email it to you.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 6, 2006

Lots of Warm Tone Paper Developer Formulas in the APUG Chemical Recipes:

Ilford ID-62
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ilford ID-78 (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ilford Universal Concentrated Liquid Developer (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Kodak D-163 (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Chemical Guru's Needed

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