ChatGPT as a darkroom tool

Has anybody else found value in using ChatGPT as a darkrrom tool? I am a novice photographer that picked up film photography during the early days of the COVID pandemic. I've never had formal photography training and have pieced together whatever knowledge I've gained largely through trial and error supported by reading the Ansel Adams trio of books, this forum, and Large Format Photography's forum.

Over the last month I've used ChatGPT as a darkroom aid in two ways: 1) to help dial-in my development process for 4x5 B/W film, and 2) to print a B/W photo album I am giving as a Christmas gift. In each case I've uploaded images and other information (especially densitometer measurements) to ChatGPT. It interprets the inputs I've provided and suggests next steps . For example, when printing from a new negative an iteracton might go something like this: 1) I upload a test strip with 3 second increments made with a 2.5 filter. 2) ChatGPT recommends trying an intial print with a base exposure of 8 seconds using the 2.5 filter, 3 second burn on a particular object that needs to be lightened, and a 5 second burn using a 5 filter on a different object that needs to be darkened, 3) I execute that sequence and upload the results, 4) ChatGPT suggests tweaks. Etc.

I've found it to be hugely helpful. While it is not infallible, I have not uncovered any "hallucinations" or other clearly crazy ideas. I think of it as being a knowledgeable partner, one that might forget things that I'm surprised it will forget (it definitely "thinks" differently than other computer systems I've used over the years), but one that is still quite knowledgble and can explain its reasoning. I'm glad to follow its advice in the relatively low risk environment of the darkroom, where errors are measured in the range of a failed print or blown practice negative (I haven't trusted it with precious ones yet).

BTW, I have found ChatGPT to be an incredible aid in a wide range of DIY realms (plumbing, auto repair). I am optinistic that I'm on a path to solve a problem that my plumber couldn't solve -- and I'm a worse plumber than I am photographer, but that is a different subject!

Interesting.

I use both ChatGPT and Gemini professionally for research (never for writing), and, because I'm an experienced researcher and know how to drill down, I find many layers of hallucinations. I persist with both programs, because it's possible to "train" them and reduce--not yet (maybe never) eliminate--errors. But maybe most of those errors occur because I'm asking it really complex questions.

I imagine if you task it as you are, it can be very useful. I think I'll try it. Thanks!

Hello,

At the beginning I was impressed by this chatbot, for a few weeks, after that I've noticed how it works and what was it purpose, I guess we all know now what it's all about with the so called AI technology, is a business meant to make lots of money from different sources, first the users then the company, the hardware manufacturers and the others companies that sell this kind of services or rent them. I have friends in the industry and they are nothing more then "gold diggers" and the gpt is the shovel. The app "per se'' is a data mining platform, like facebook, discord, X, google and so on. There is nothing innovative to it the technology was used in the '50'for and put aside for the right time, it's just a Whatsapp predictor on steroids, nothing more. In reality this kinda technology should be considered illegal if the laws were to be applyed as they are right know in most countries, it has been trained with data from illegal sources, without permission and has been trained by almost enslaved people that hat to teach the bot to discriminate and prompts answers for the user. There is nothing intelligent about this apps, just pre-configurated answers. They killed the internet that was already killed by Google and YouTube, also I've read that by the end of 2026 almost 90% of the internet will be generated artificially by bots and people will lose interest in creating man made content for the web. As a web designer I am an activist, and fight the WordPress monopoly on the CMS scene, people don't even know that the internet died because of the lack of interest of the users in learning how to code and design them self, and use the so called ''free-CMS" that early this year told the world the truth that they are collecting data and user behavior stats to train the AI... I guess will have to deal with it and go along, the companies are far to powerful to fight against, and they all have the governments approval and protection to do as they will.


I don't know if you agree but it does not matter anymore what people think or want to do... see you around.

PrairiePhotographer said:

I have not uncovered any "hallucinations" or other clearly crazy ideas.

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I've found if you give it too much information or ask it about topics it doesn't have good data on it completely loses the plot.

For example, I tried some retirement planning calculations on it. It was doing okay for a few replies, then it completely forgot about an important piece of information, making its result inaccurate. Probably because it had to juggle about 10 pieces of info simultaneously.

These are mathematical calculations similar to darkroom ones, which are one of the main things it's good at, but even then, you have to watch that it doesn't confidently make a mistake.

In my opinion it's good as a starting point to build your understanding, but after you get the concept, it's often better to solve the problems directly. That way your mind will also get exercise and be able to repeat the process without aid.

It's helpful with common machine problems, for example it was able to figure out what was wrong with my riding lawnmower.

I have experienced its hallucinations, for example it told me that a very grainy film developer was less grainy than a relatively fine grained one. A lot of the data it's training on regarding darkroom stuff is coming from internet sources of enthusiastic amateurs who may be completely wrong about what they're saying. Since it trains on that, it will repeat their errors.

Horia said:

There is nothing innovative to it the technology was used in the '50'for and put aside for the right time, it's just a Whatsapp predictor on steroids, nothing more.

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This is factually incorrect as is most of your post. It's also irrelevant to the thread at hand so let's end this diversion right here.

Let's get back to the topic how AI can help (or hinder) darkroom work. I presently don't use it in that particular capacity, but follow with interest how others leverage it.

A good friend of mine, has been travelling extensively to many darkroom and workshops possibly to some of you here on Photrio, He is extremely interested in all aspects of
photography, and he video tapes records workshops as well on all different topics creates records from books that he then runs through something that is AI based to analyze the topic. For example right now he is scanning my books on Gum Bichromate and Palladium processes and we are looking at Calvins book , both Christina Andersons book , Stephen Livik and David Scopic books as well as pdfs I have done on the subject and the notes on the topic my students who have studied with me have made. I have also given him William A Jolly notes and my notes on solarization as well he will be videotaping me doing a round of negative to negative solarizations hoping to produce high quality positives that I can scan and then print. I find this all interesting and the first results
I see are quite interesting , it seems my friend has to ask the right questions as well prod the AI to look deeper into aspects of its response.
Hopefully he will garner a very complex and complete analysis of two of the processes I work with.

koraks said:

This is factually incorrect as is most of your post. It's also irrelevant to the thread at hand so let's end this diversion right here.

Let's get back to the topic how AI can help (or hinder) darkroom work. I presently don't use it in that particular capacity, but follow with interest how others leverage it.

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Can you imagine the knowledge and lack of knowledge that is archived on this site. It would take a major effort to glean out. the good stuff but like having a moderator team, Sean could
put together a team of inhouse consultants of people that contribute here and look at topics discussed and create a world class resourse for future young photographers. Or does this sound too dystopian in theory or would it be illegal to take words of others ?

Carnie Bob said:

Sean could
put together a team of inhouse consultants of people that contribute here and look at topics discussed and create a world class resourse for future young photographers.

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That's essentially what Photrio is. But we accept the 'noise' of people interjecting wrong and offtopic comments to an extent because it's a forum and in principle you don't need a license to play. Sometimes as a moderator I might nudge (gently or a little less so) into the right direction of people veer off course too much and this distracts from the question someone has asked. That's still quite some distance from some kind of consultancy solution, in which case the question of the business model would arise pretty early on. I don't think that really computes; you could assemble a team of experts but the 'customers' in question are characterized by a very limited (or entirely absent) willingness to pay. So I think AI with its currently low transaction cost fills that gap fairly nicely, insofar as it's not filled by forums like Photrio.

I use CoPilot, mainly because it is state-full, so the more you communicate about the particular subject the more it becomes a co-worker. It is very helpful in getting for the Alt processes some information or give me possible explanations on why some things occur. That is not direct in the darkroom but it is about explaining the results and look for improvements before and after going in the darkroom. I did use it for example to calculate the sensitivity approximately of some cyanotype emulsions.
Another use but more fun is that it is becoming very good in visual interpretations. So one use case was to let it re-render a double exposure in the single exposures.
I usually upload prints i have made in CoPilot for its evaluation, to allow it to see my direction and goals, to assist in further new adventures with the alt-processes.
So yes I use it and I find it increasingly useful. It does already often source from Photrio but also can go back to old books at the same time. Clue is what and how you ask, and to use a state-full AI.

that is my thought for the moment.
Jan.

I think the domain of well-compiled carefully scrutinized information is instructional books. These can be paper or electronic, made freely or charged for, but someone has to do the work of creating them in order for them to exist. The filtration of good from bad information is done through experience and experiment.

Shortcuts with AI often must be so closely watched for error that the time-saving bonus is minimal. Many workplaces that have incorporated AI spend most of their time error checking to the point that some realize its better go back to the old way.

I like AI as a way to give ideas on how to get an unfamiliar task started, or when you are stuck on something. You have to be able to understand its outputs are only as good as its inputs when judging its response.

loccdor said:

Shortcuts with AI often must be so closely watched for error that the time-saving bonus is minimal. Many workplaces that have incorporated AI spend most of their time error checking to the point that some realize its better go back to the old way.

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Sorry, I don't recognize this at all. I see people using AI around me all the time and boosting their productivity massively with it. This ranges from healthcare situations where diagnoses are performed quicker and especially more reliably than by human doctors, generation of reports and reference letters in psychiatry, customer support in various fields, technical troubleshooting, software engineering is HUGELY affected and accelerated by AI (which has been happening for a long time already but has now been boosted again), entrepreneurial activity using it for idea generation and initial market analysis, etc. etc. etc. The list is literally endless. As to the supposed reverting to non-AI ways of working - sorry, nope nope nope this is not the general direction at all. There may be isolated cases where they take a step back temporarily only to take two massive strides ahead tomorrow. That's not the representative pattern of this change, however.

And sure, like any tool, the quality of work depends on the competence of the person wielding it. "A fool with a tool is still a fool" as they used to say in university; it's still true. But give a bunch of competent people powerful tools and they'll find ways to improve the output as well as the quality of their work and that's exactly what's happening right now. Pretty much the only people I see being systematically skeptical are people who are afraid to give it a serious shot themselves or people who are for some reason resistant to any form of change so they'll automatically reject whatever comes their way. Mind you, I can sympathize to an extent and I feel society should accommodate the laggards as well as the innovators, but that's a different matter altogether.

To be clear, I'm not an AI evangelist, far from it and perhaps even the opposite. But the resistance I see in some people today is just holding on to a world that's just gone forever; sorry, but things change and this innovation is like many radical innovations that have gone before it: it's a game-changer.

PS: one of the reasons @Sean has been able to boost functionality, speed and reliability of this site in some areas (although perhaps not clearly visible to many yet) is because of...AI. The fact that we can continue to enjoy this place where we can discuss yesteryear's technology is largely thanks to AI.

Chatgpt does not appear to have access to copyright technical books. Its reply when I asked about one:

I don’t have the ability to read or access specific books like a person does, including Photographic Processing Chemistry by LFA Mason (1975). I was trained on a mixture of licensed data, data created by human trainers, and publicly available texts — but I don’t have direct access to the contents of specific copyrighted works unless text from them has been included in that training mix or you provide excerpts.

However when asked what sources it was trained on in photographic chemistry it quotes a wide range, classic photochemistry books, university level texts, manufacturer publications, scientific journals, darkroom manuals, trade magazines, so it must have read some books. What it says:

• I cannot list “books used in my training” — that information doesn’t exist in a retrievable way
• I cannot claim direct exposure to specific copyrighted works
• I can explain the intellectual lineage of a field
• I can discuss the chemistry at the same technical depth those books do

If you’re asking because you want to know whether I can engage at Mason’s level of rigor (reaction mechanisms, exhaustion curves, equilibrium chemistry, etc.), the answer is yes.

However it does not appear to be able to access web.archive where a lot of the good stuff is stored. In reply to a question it said:
No — I can’t borrow and read photography books on web.archive.org (or anywhere else) the way a human can.

Reply to another question:

Can I search Photrio?​

• Not by default. I don’t have live access to Photrio or its forums unless I intentionally do a web search during the conversation.
• If you ask me something like “Search Photrio for discussions about Rodinal stand development”, I can do that only by browsing the web, and I’ll clearly indicate when I’m doing so.
• Without browsing, I’m working from general knowledge, not from pulling current forum posts.

So I’m not silently querying Photrio in the background.

If you want, you can even paste a Photrio excerpt here and ask:

• “Is this advice sound?”
• “Why do these two posters disagree?”
• “What’s the physics/chemistry behind this claim?”

That’s where I’m strongest.

I think the question is has anyone found AI (ChatGPT or others I would say) useful in the darkroom. I widen that scope to darkroom, processes and alt-processes. I think the ethics of how these LLMs came to where the are now is a different discussion, still worth in its own right.
I would really be interested as to what persons are using it and how they use it.

an example below where I upload something I have created and then work on it for some ideas.


I love that feedback, then ask it to create a book title in the mood of the 50ties which my image reminded me of.


I hope to see more comments of deeper use of AI here if I may ask.

cheers
Jan.

koraks said:

Sorry, I don't recognize this at all.

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We must be experiencing AI in very different ways. So far, it's given me a bogus traffic ticket for a significant sum of money (AI camera image processing), made it impossible for me to contact a human to straighten out an unrelated erroneous charge (AI customer service), our workplace hiring committee is flooded with low-effort AI resumes by people who do not even know what job they are applying for and are ineligible to be hired (AI text generation), my wife's college coursework is being flagged as AI generated in error (false perception of AI text generation)... with all that said, I don't dispute that it has places where it can provide a big force multiplier.

Regarding "fool with a tool" - most people are of average intelligence. A huge number of them have started relying on AI in their workplace. We can't expect people not to be fools with this tool. It won't always make things more foolish, but it will sometimes.

I know someone with the flu right now. They consulted AI. Their interpretation of its response was that they should open the window in winter to get over the flu quicker. There was nothing I could do to convince them this was reckless, wasteful, and potentially harmful. What AI was actually telling them was that greater airflow reduces the spread of the flu, which they then interpreted in an irrational direction, believing it would aid their recovery.

I recently watched an analysis that about 5% of AI applications are doing what you described, with massive gains. 95% being confused and misapplied. The conclusion was that it has similarities to the dot com bubble. It's not that the internet wasn't the future, it's that the individual details weren't being adequately examined at that time.

To get back to the darkroom topic, one good use for it is translating foreign language text on films, developers, cameras, etc. This is one area where it will be revolutionary. The translation technology has allowed me to dive into worldwide resources instead of just English-speaking ones.

I've not found ChatGPT or AI to be of any help in film processing. If I were to ask ChatGPT a question about a particular developing time at a particular temperature, I would always double check whatever it says with all of the known good film/chemistry processing tables. So why bother using ChatGPT in that case? Where does ChatGPT get its information, and will it display its reference sources if it gives you a recommended processing time and temperature?

Now, when you can show me a fully functional automated film processing setup that incorporates AI for flawless film processing every time, I'll go for that. With current tools you have to plug in the film type and developer so all it is really calculating is the correct processing time for the actual temperature, so that's not very sophisticated at all, and doesn't require AI at all.

This thread made me curious. My main use case for AI thus far has been translation; in particular translating english<->catalan using both Chat GPT and Claude.ai For that realm they do pretty good, bit still requires some knowledge of the subject to prevent misguided usage...non native constructs. They will often yield different results for translations with Claude.ai being a little better at sounding like a native. I have also noticed that ChatGPT will sometimes hallucinate spanish constructions in the Catalan phrases. These both far exceed the capabilities of g**gle translate.

To the subject at hand...

I just asked ChatGPT about developing TriX400 EI320 in HC110.
It came back with this suggestion :

• Tri-X 400 (35 mm)
• EI 320
• HC-110 Dil H (1:63)
• 11.5 min @ 20 °C
• 30s initial + 2 inv/min

Which is not a terribly off recommendation. Probably ballpark of Massive Development in any case. What is more interesting is that it has a memory of some of my prior discussions and apparently my location as it offered to recommend a process for “even more highlight control (bright Mediterranean sun )” and dialed ”specifically for my Reflecta Scanner.” Both offers are relevant and true.

So this simple task it did okay. What would be interesting is to perform that recommendation and then give ChatGPT feedback on the results to improve the model. Or I can just look at my developing logbook and also improve my personal model.

filsogh said:

So this simple task it did okay. What would be interesting is to perform that recommendation and then give ChatGPT feedback on the results to improve the model. Or I can just look at my developing logbook and also improve my personal model.

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That is how to use it, and in a state-full AI it will remember your specifics. In your questions you can ask for more grain, less grain, recipes for developer, type of output or scanner etc. You can also upload all your notes in the logbook, even as a picture and it can evaluate with you further. AI is not a an oracle with an answers for this, since no DIN database for all films developers and conditions exists (yet)

Jan de Jong said:

That is how to use it, and in a state-full AI it will remember your specifics. In your questions you can ask for more grain, less grain, recipes for developer, type of output or scanner etc. You can also upload all your notes in the logbook, even as a picture and it can evaluate with you further. AI is not a an oracle with an answers for this, since no DIN database for all films developers and conditions exists (yet)

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Exactly my experience. It creates a mental map of your interests. You can go into settings and see it and even change it there. I've trained my version (I pay for "Plus") to give me only verifiable primary sources (I'm an historian) and links for me to confirm them. I never, ever trust anything ChatGPT or Gemini tells me without testing its source of information. But it does produce responses that conform to your standards of evidence and to your previous interests. It takes a bit of work on our part, but it is gradually improving.

loccdor said:

Regarding "fool with a tool" - most people are of average intelligence. A huge number of them have started relying on AI in their workplace. We can't expect people not to be fools with this tool. It won't always make things more foolish, but it will sometimes.

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You understand that there are free AI models in which the adage "the advice given is worth exactly what you paid for it" is very true; and commercial subscription based models which are increasingly being used at a professional level in many fields?

I know personally that some being used in engineering design are very good indeed, when driven by a qualified person in the field.

bags27 said:

I never, ever trust anything ChatGPT or Gemini tells me without testing its source of information. But it does produce responses that conform to your standards of evidence and to your previous interests. It takes a bit of work on our part, but it is gradually improving.

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I don't see how this is an improvement or timesaver for darkroom work. Not to mention the global impact of AI data centers just to be able to train some AI models for a commercial business.

djdister said:

I don't see how this is an improvement or timesaver for darkroom work. Not to mention the global impact of AI data centers just to be able to train some AI models for a commercial business.

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I see your hesitation, but my Grandfather had a farm and it was the time where everybody changed from Horses to Tractors. His son was young and of course went the new way of using the Tractor but my grandfather kept with his horses, not so fast and efficient, but he got the work done also.

bags27 said:

But maybe most of those errors occur because I'm asking it really complex questions.

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That's certainly part of it. A similar part is that no two photographer are alike, and that's especially true in the darkroom. Each has different gear, chemicals, methods, etc. etc. For a beginning, AI could be a big help to a neophyte, but AI can't possibly answer questions related to my idiosyncratic darkroom.

As a test, I asked a simple question about my Yashinon Atoron 15mm enlarging lens. It assumed it was a fisheye!!!

It reminded me of one of Bobby Vee's hit songs -- "Come back when you grow up, Girl".

xkaes said:

That's certainly part of it. A similar part is that no two photographer are alike, and that's especially true in the darkroom. Each has different gear, chemicals, methods, etc. etc. For a beginning, AI could be a big help to a neophyte, but AI can't possibly answer questions related to my idiosyncratic darkroom.

As a test, I asked a simple question about my Yashinon Atoron 15mm enlarging lens. It assumed it was a fisheye!!!

It reminded me of one of Bobby Vee's hit songs -- "Come back when you grow up, Girl".

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Indeed, it is not an answering machine from an encyclopedia, but a language model allowing you to dig in to knowledge together. So in a stateful AI it will learn from the dialog. In this case of your lens you should reply, "ah no, that is not correct, I mean... " In CoPilot I got however direct the correct answer. It is also a matter of global learning of these models. They will feedback the information gathered by all users individually asking also. (and filter it) For now you need to find your answers in dialog. The growing up will not come by itself waiting, you can actively participate and grow that part of your expertise with it.

If I was getting paid for it, I'd consider it, but given that it's already using forums like this to gather information, there's really no need for me to help IT out. IT is supposed to help me out. The basic point is that in art -- which photography is -- different people will have different opinions and approaches. There are many "places" where there are no wrong or right -- and AI, at least at this point, can't deal with that. It will tell you to develop this film in this way, but there are a million ways to do it.

I’ve used darkroom workflow planning as self-host questions in testing both ChatGPT and Claude at my workplace.

Both of them appear to have been trained primarily on Reddit photography forums and on the Massive Dev Chart. They give answers loaded with a mix of correct information, hallucinations that seem credible but are not accurate, and some absolute whoppers. They do better if prompted by someone with enough experience to recognize iffy results.

I can see how it could help someone new to photography feel like they’re getting useful advice, especially if they’re unaware of what the right results look like for formulas, procedures and timing, etc. much like reading Reddit

I would definitely advise not to use it for mixing formulas from scratch. I’ve seen some hallucinations that would lead to failures or worse.