Chalky/milky residue coating on fiber prints?

Arg6442 · Feb 2, 2019

Hey guys!

I did a printing session today with Ilford MGFB. Noticing that I had run out of permawash, I looked around and saw that people had used sodium sulfite and water as a hypo clearing agent. I mixed up a concentrate of 200g Kodak Sodium Sulfate in a liter of water and washed the prints in a 1:9 solution of that. After a regular cycle and an extended wash in a Patterson archival print washer, I ran them through the print dryer and they came out with a hazy, chalky coating. I’ve tried washing them in water for 2 half hour cycles and each time they’ve come out exactly the same. Streaks and fingerprints are in the exact same place after each one of these washes, so clearly absolutely nothing is happening.

What’s causing the residue? How can I wash it out?

Thanks

Anon Ymous · Feb 2, 2019

You likely used tap water and the chalky residue is just that: chalk. Water hardness caused calcium carbonate to be formed and you probably noticed some precipitate in the solution you made. You must either add something to take care of water hardness, or use distilled/deionised water.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2019

Arg6442 said:
Hey guys!

I did a printing session today with Ilford MGFB. Noticing that I had run out of permawash, I looked around and saw that people had used sodium sulfite and water as a hypo clearing agent. I mixed up a concentrate of 200g Kodak Sodium Sulfate in a liter of water and washed the prints in a 1:9 solution of that. After a regular cycle and an extended wash in a Patterson archival print washer, I ran them through the print dryer and they came out with a hazy, chalky coating. I’ve tried washing them in water for 2 half hour cycles and each time they’ve come out exactly the same. Streaks and fingerprints are in the exact same place after each one of these washes, so clearly absolutely nothing is happening.

What’s causing the residue? How can I wash it out?

Thanks

Did you use sodium sulfite, or did you use sodium sulfate?

Arg6442 · Feb 2, 2019

MattKing said:
Did you use sodium sulfite, or did you use sodium sulfate?

Sulfite, sorry for the typo

mshchem · Feb 2, 2019

Is your fixer cloudy with Sulfur. Rapid Fix can ppt. sulfur with oxygen and cool temperature.

Print dryer? Anything new with this? I ran into a problem with prints sticking to the belt on my Pako dryer. I was using Selenium toner too warm and no hardener after toning. Emulsion was too soft.
Could be hard water, but I live in the hardest water "capital" Coralville Iowa, named after the 250 foot layer of pure Calcium Carbonate that is below the surface. Never have had a problem.

Arg6442 · Feb 2, 2019

mshchem said:
Is your fixer cloudy with Sulfur. Rapid Fix can ppt. sulfur with oxygen and cool temperature.

Print dryer? Anything new with this? I ran into a problem with prints sticking to the belt on my Pako dryer. I was using Selenium toner too warm and no hardener after toning. Emulsion was too soft.
Could be hard water, but I live in the hardest water "capital" Coralville Iowa, named after the 250 foot layer of pure Calcium Carbonate that is below the surface. Never have had a problem.

My water isn’t terribly hard, at least it’s never been a problem for me (I’m actually in Ames hahaha). The fixer was also clear as always.

Anon Ymous · Feb 2, 2019

Now that I think about it, it's probably calcium sulfite that is formed.

mshchem · Feb 2, 2019

Arg6442 said:
My water isn’t terribly hard, at least it’s never been a problem for me (I’m actually in Ames hahaha). The fixer was also clear as always.

Sounds weird. Do the prints look normal before drying?

Assuming you are using fresh paper? ?

Streaks and fingerprints sounds a bit like it could be happening before or during development ?

tezzasmall · Feb 3, 2019

I had the same problem last year, when I used sodium carbonate / washing soda as a hypo clearing agent. I think I may have put too much in. But whilst the prints were still wet, I run them under tap water and gently wiped them with a finger and it all came off. Could be worth a try?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sodium carbonate&t=ffab
Terry S

Doremus Scudder · Feb 3, 2019

I mix my own wash aid regularly, using one Tablespoon of sodium sulfite (and a pinch of bisulfite) per liter. That's about 25g sulfite per liter, not the 200g you used! Try again with a smaller amount. I surmise that the 200g/l was to make a stock solution that you then dilute before use, in this case, 1+7. All the formulae I see have the working solution at about 25g/l of sodium sulfite.

Best,

Doremus

Arg6442 · Feb 8, 2019

mshchem said:
Sounds weird. Do the prints look normal before drying?

Assuming you are using fresh paper? ?

Streaks and fingerprints sounds a bit like it could be happening before or during development ?

The prints look perfect when wet. I put them under a final extra-long wash and wiped them over with the soft part of a dish sponge. The residue is now gone!

mshchem · Feb 8, 2019

Arg6442 said:
The prints look perfect when wet. I put them under a final extra-long wash and wiped them over with the soft part of a dish sponge. The residue is now gone!

Victory! The wonders of the darkroom. Maybe the water department were flushing the lines. Glad to hear you worked it out. It's worth the effort.

Tom Kershaw · Feb 8, 2019

Perfect timing as I've had this problem crop up a couple of times recently as well. Doesn't seem to apply to all prints.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 9, 2019

Arg6442,
I'm curious to know if you, indeed, used your wash-aid stock solution at full strength instead of diluting it first, as I pointed out in my post above. You should really be using a working solution with 25g/l of sodium sulfite. Keep in mind that sulfite solutions will eventually oxidize and go bad; that's why I mix up my wash-aid immediately prior to use. One Tbsp of sulfite and a pinch of bisulfite per liter is quick and easy.

Best,

Doremus

CMoore · Feb 9, 2019

Doremus Scudder said:
Arg6442,
I'm curious to know if you, indeed, used your wash-aid stock solution at full strength instead of diluting it first, as I pointed out in my post above. You should really be using a working solution with 25g/l of sodium sulfite. Keep in mind that sulfite solutions will eventually oxidize and go bad; that's why I mix up my wash-aid immediately prior to use. One Tbsp of sulfite and a pinch of bisulfite per liter is quick and easy.

Best,

Doremus

I would be curious as well.
Not because i am any kind of chemist.
I use the "same" recipe as D.S.
Probably a bit less.? ......i always have one or more of those plastic spoons in the darkroom.....the type you get from a fast food pack. I use that for the Sodium Sulfite, and then a sprinkle of the bisulfite into a liter of water.
I use it once and toss it out.

Tom Kershaw · Feb 11, 2019

I would need to double check to be completely sure but I seem to have dealt with the residue issue by gently re rinsing the print under tap water prior to agitation 30-60secs in distilled water. 1500ml + 3ml Tetenal Mirasol (wetting agent).

Chalky/milky residue coating on fiber prints?

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