Certo Six and Mamiya Six - has anyone tried both?

Both of these cameras cost around ~150-250 and are reputed to have some of the best lenses among mid century folding rangefinders. Especially since they both are unit-focusing rather than front-cell focusing and are coated. I am specifically thinking of the Olympus lens Mamiyas, not the Sekor ones. Has anyone tried out both of these cameras and could provide a suggestion on which one I should consider getting?

Not both, just the Mamiya with Olympus 75 3.5, tack sharp.

I had a SuperDolly Certo 6 circa 1936 with a Zeiss lens. The lens was very sharp, but the numbers for 645 did not line up with today's films and the camera scratched the film. Again the lens was very sharp.

Not tried both, sorry, but while a film taken with Mamiya-6 is drying I can say it has much better viewfinder than e.g. Ikonta, not excellent but workable.

ive never used a certo 6 just the mamiya folder. it was one of my "favoritest" cameras, shot probably 300 rolls of film with it, sharp as nails, no frame creep, beautiful bokeh when shot wide open, but sadly I sent it to certo6 to have him fix it instead of Zack's, and unfortunately he made it so I don't have the camera to use anymore. Given the opportunity, I'd buy one again in a heartbeat if I had the $$ and the need (I'd never buy a certo 6 only because I associate the camera's name with the repair guy), and IMMEDIATELY I'd send / bring it to Zack's for his magic ... but these days I'm using an arax60, it's my new favoritist cameras !

as with everything posted on the internet. YMMV
John

jnantz said:

ive never used a certo 6 just the mamiya folder. it was one of my "favoritest" cameras, shot probably 300 rolls of film with it, sharp as nails, no frame creep, beautiful bokeh when shot wide open, but sadly I sent it to certo6 to have him fix it instead of Zack's, and unfortunately he made it so I don't have the camera to use anymore. Given the opportunity, I'd buy one again in a heartbeat if I had the $$ and the need (I'd never buy a certo 6 only because I associate the camera's name with the repair guy), and IMMEDIATELY I'd send / bring it to Zack's for his magic ... but these days I'm using an arax60, it's my new favoritist cameras !

as with everything posted on the internet. YMMV
John

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Sorry to hear about your camera. You're not the first person I've heard horror stories from about that repair operation.

New question: anyone want to sell me their Mamiya Six? haha

jnantz said:

ive never used a certo 6 just the mamiya folder. it was one of my "favoritest" cameras, shot probably 300 rolls of film with it, sharp as nails, no frame creep, beautiful bokeh when shot wide open, but sadly I sent it to certo6 to have him fix it instead of Zack's, and unfortunately he made it so I don't have the camera to use anymore. Given the opportunity, I'd buy one again in a heartbeat if I had the $$ and the need (I'd never buy a certo 6 only because I associate the camera's name with the repair guy), and IMMEDIATELY I'd send / bring it to Zack's for his magic ... but these days I'm using an arax60, it's my new favoritist cameras !

as with everything posted on the internet. YMMV
John

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I'm sorry for your experience, but glad you shared it. I bought a really cheap Super Ikonta with a busted viewfinder (he said the rangefinder works), and am deciding where I want to send it. I had heard good things about certo6, but also had a good experience with Zacks. I guess I'll be checking with Zacks first.

I would pitch in to suggest Mark Hansen of Zeiss Ikon Rollei Repair. He is very honest and skillful, and a rarity among Rollei people, also reasonably priced. He says he likes to fix folders as well, and since he charges reasonable prices for Rolleis, he charges even more reasonable prices for folders.

I have (had) several models of both. please see my folders website http://www.120folder.com/ for more information. I would not recommend the certo 6 unless you can get a perfect one, it has several weak points. I would rather recommend the older certo super sport dolly with a rangefinder. I sold the mamiyas and the certo 6 and I kept the certo dollies. lens-wise all the lenses are fine, the xenars as the trioplans on the certo dollies, the tessar on the certo 6 is superb, as are the olympus lenses on the mamiyas. I have not had a sekor on these.

I have a Certo6 and the lens is very sharp, but it may be the heaviest folder made. It's as heavy as some standard slrs, but the lens makes up for it. I believe it's the only folder that uses a standard film advance lever.
I haven't tried the Mamiya 6.

In terms of repair, I've sent folders and purchased from the site Certo6, but I only have sent folders he is familiar with, i.e., the ones he sold on his website.

Have only used the Mamiya 6 folders. In fact, I like them so much I have 3 of them. I use the Mamiya 6 IVS regularly, It has the sekor S .Am well pleased with it.

Also have the Mamiya 6 automat with the Olympus D.Zuiko F.C. very sharp. This one sports a new bellows,

Lastly, picked up a Mamiya 6 model II with the K.O.L. lens. This model has the waist finder. Have only shot 1 roll of film through this one, results are good. Needs some cleaning up, Veiwfinder is a very deep orange , can barely see through it.

jnantz said:

ive never used a certo 6 just the mamiya folder. it was one of my "favoritest" cameras, shot probably 300 rolls of film with it, sharp as nails, no frame creep, beautiful bokeh when shot wide open, but sadly I sent it to certo6 to have him fix it instead of Zack's, and unfortunately he made it so I don't have the camera to use anymore. Given the opportunity, I'd buy one again in a heartbeat if I had the $$ and the need (I'd never buy a certo 6 only because I associate the camera's name with the repair guy), and IMMEDIATELY I'd send / bring it to Zack's for his magic ... but these days I'm using an arax60, it's my new favoritist cameras !

as with everything posted on the internet. YMMV
John

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Could you please explain exactly what happened‽
It sounds very strange that he just kept your camera. Didn’t he pay you anything back?

Without further explanation, the idea that you might be a difficult, unreasonable customer, will invariably pop up in peoples minds.
Especially since Certo6 seems to have such a good rep.

Mamiya 6 does some freaky shit with the film plane, which I believe they are the only manufacturer of medium format camera’s who has ever tried.
That is, It focuses by moving the film plane instead of the lens, tension plate and all.
I wouldn’t trust it.
Not only is there a good chance that the film could go limp and curve an wrinkle. There is also the chance of scratches and permanent creases from the unusual tensioning mechanism.

Chances are, you’ll only really notice on the few images you take wide open. There will always be doubt in the back of your mind about whether your shot could be sharper though.

The Certo Six is phenomenal on paper, but being made in the Eastern block during the Cold War, it can be subject to the whims if the production line and supply line.
That’s not just speculation. That’s something I’ve heard from people who actually worked on the cameras.
Same with other east block wonder folders, like the Iskra, Ercona or Moskva.
They might be fine, so if you trust the seller, go for it. But otherwise it can be a crapshoot.

Helge said:

Could you please explain exactly what happened‽

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I really didn't want to pollute this thread with bad vibes, but. ...
( this was 15 years ago so maybe things are different now ? ) well basically he made it seem ( via email ) that he could repair my camera. the small threaded shaft that connects the wind knob and the camera had sheered due to my negligence ( I didn't have a ever ready case and put the camera wrapped in a t shirt in a travel bag in my car when we were going on a small trip ) .. anyways, after consulting ( cause he was the folder-guy ) I sent it to him, and received it back not with the threaded shaft replaced but with some weird piece of metal that he welded between the camera and the wind knob. the top plate of the camera no longer seated, the wind knob hovered above the camera and it was a train wreck. I emailed him with my concerns and said " what happened to my camera ?!" and he said "it is fine just use it and if it breaks just send it back to me I will re-fix it". well, it wasn't fixed to begin with, the first roll of film I put in it his "weld" didn't hold and I wasn't about to have him further molest my camera. if he had no clue how to fix it or even to unscrew the threaded shaft that broke ( i saw it, im no repair guy and thought it was obvious? ) why did he attempt to fix it so poorly-- it was a mess when he sent it back to me..AND he charged me money for basically ruining my camera so I could never use it again since his "weld" wrecked the part the threaded shaft screwed into. someone told me a similar story and another person told me he held on to his camera for a year without responding to emails &C, holding it "hostage" until he had to get "the authorities" involved. he might be good at some cameras, he might have treated some people very well, but I had an awful experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Zack has a lathe in his shop and knows cameras, especially old funky stuff inside and out, and will manufacture a part if it needs to be replaced and he doesn't have one. yes I feel like a fool for not consulting him originally but hindsight is 20-20 and I hope my mistakes can benefit someone who might be in a similar situation.
John

The Mamiya Six focusing method of moving the film plane is a clever solution of the problem of focusing a folding camera. Because it keeps the rangefinder coupling inside the nice rigid body rather than having something that needs to fold up. It also is effectively unit focusing the lens rather than front cell focusing.

For a camera that isn't a folder, focusing by moving the lens is mechanically easier than moving the film plane. And for an SLR it would be quite complex. So it's not surprising that few other cameras used it. (The only other I can think of is a Contax AX 35mm slr, and of course any view camera with rear focus, but that's really different.) I have never used or seen a Certo 6 and can't make a comparison, but the Mamiya Six seems to work fine. You do need to make sure that it comes with the slide-in pressure plate insert. Of course these cameras are quite old by now, so bellows condition, lens clarity, etc are all potential issues.

I’ve owned and used both, and I would choose a Mamiya Six without hesitation. One of the best folders I’ve used. The way they designed the film plan focusing is ingenious, and it keeps the film completely flat, so you get really sharp photos. I regret selling it and will buy another when I get the chance.

Helge said:

Not only is there a good chance that the film could go limp and curve an wrinkle.

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Exactly the opposite: it keeps the film flat.

I've never seen a Mamiya Six before and just watched a YouTube video showing how the focusing works. Very clever!

They are very different cameras.

The Certo was the most advanced folder of it's time, unit focusing fastest lens, parallax frame line correction, rapid wind lever, and lots of small details (like the foot, and placement of controls). Of course all that means more to fail on a 60+ year old camera.

The Mamiya, buy comparison was much simpler, and moving the focus to the film plane removed all the folding linkages required for a folding unit focus rangefinder, and they did it with 2 shafts with 2 cams each, that was protected internally, resulting in long term reliability - most don't need adjustment today. And they made so many (versions) that they are easily available today.

The main drawback of the Mamiya is the film plane focusing added thickness to the body, it's not as svelte as other folders.

The film plane focusing would be an obvious idea to implement in a lot of other cameras, if it was simple and unproblematic.
A helicoid married to a lens, that has to move securely in and out, and last, sounds deceptively simple, but is really very complicated to manufacture and doesn't leave a lot of tolerance for error.
The problem with moving the film though, is not only problems of film flatness and pressure plate tightness, but also keeping the whole thing absolutely parallel to the lens.
Even a scissor pantograph mechanism has some play and hysteresis.

A lot of the time you are going to be fine or almost fine, because you shoot stopped down, and/or because the mechanism decides to play ball.
Until you are not, on a random frame, where you have chosen some setting where the parts don't play together.
And you don't have a clear idea why.
That's not an attempt at FUD. Thats just my experience in general.

The Certo Six ideas are again on paper really good.
The integrated and combined unit focusing and parallax compensation. The spool thickness sensor for advancing the correct amount of film. The quick advance lever and the focusing mechanism. All brilliant. If they work.
But as users of the Certo Six will tell you, these are the exact parts that break, come out of calibration or that there are usability problems with.
Most importantly, a moving lens standard is a potentially a slightly loser and more wobbly standard.

Front cell focusing is not only simpler, it is also stiffer and more reliable than just about any other reliable and economically realistic precise focusing method for a folder.
The Super Ikontas and the other high quality folders, use it not as much as a cost saving measure, but as a quality measure. As a way of getting reliable and sure focusing decade after decade.
A stiff front standard is imperative in something as potentially wobbly as a folder.
That is the Zeiss and Agfa (when they work) folders strong suit.

As the cliché goes, the sign of good design is often not the number of features, but the features left out.

The Zeiss Ikonta/Nettar and Agfa Isolette folders are light, relative simple and wear their years well.
I have never seen a picture where I thought "now that would have been better with unit focusing".
Undoubtedly front cell focusing is "worse", but I have yet to see examples of how much worse.

AFAIK the problems with front cell focusing really only sets in after about 1 meter, which incidentally is just where the min. focusing distance is set for front cell focusing folders.
(You can remove the stop and get closer, but only with increasing problems at the edge of the field).
The rest of the way you can go with diopters and a tape measure with very good results.

I owned a Certo Dolly Super Sport with the Zeiss Tessar lens. The camera was near mint in many ways but the bellows. Sent the camera to Sandeha Lynch for new bellows and then stupidly sold the camera when I "thought" I needed to downsize. The Zeiss lens was on of the sharpest lenses I owned at the time in any camera. I search constantly for another of the same condition camera but nothing yet. I loved that you never had to look at a red window after the first frame because of the counter advance knob on the bottom. BTW, mine came from Japan.

Now, I happily have a Zeiss Ikonta 521A with a nice sharp Tessar lens but for 6x4.5. CLA'd and new bellows by Jurgen so this thing should last a while.

I have handled several MF folders, but only Zeiss Ikon had trouble free ridged front lens standard. While the lenses of others may not be inferior, they fail with regards to design and reliability. Besides my Super Ikonta B, the more modern, but also more expensive Plaubel Makina seems to have a solution to maintaining a parallel lens and a robust focusing mechanism, using a tongs like design. My Fuji GF 670 seems robust (it cost enough when new) but only time will tell. Last, both of these cameras are dependent on electronics, so their mechanical longevity may never be questioned.

guangong said:

Last, both of these cameras are dependent on electronics, so their mechanical longevity may never be questioned.

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Actually Plaubel Makinas (I assume you're referring to W67 and 670 models?) aren't dependent on electronics to function so they ought to endure like other mechanical cameras. At least I hope so. The electronics are limited to a light meter and the cameras work fine without a battery.

jawarden said:

Actually Plaubel Makinas (I assume you're referring to W67 and 670 models?) aren't dependent on electronics to function so they ought to endure like other mechanical cameras. At least I hope so. The electronics are limited to a light meter and the cameras work fine without a battery.

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You are absolutely correct!

I've got both, though my Mamiya Six has one of less common lenses (a Neocon).

The Certo 6 feels significantly better built, and heavier, but as pointed out above, does have a common weak spot. The main issue seems to be the rangefinder mirrors decaying over time, so you end up with no split image. I fixed mine replacing the rangefinder mirror. It was a bit fiddly to get lined up, but nothing too challenging. Other than that, I've had no problems. The lens is super sharp and the focusing mechanism includes parallax correction. The lever film wind is one of the best I've encountered on a folder. The shutter is different since rather than push down, you push horizontally to the left (towards the centre of the camera).

I find the Mamiya a bit of a nuisance to load, but other than that it's quite pleasant.

Another one I have that is really nice to use is the Super Fujica Six. Nice bright viewfinder (by folder standards), decent film advance and good lens (though nothing tops the Certo). Mine came with a close up adapter which includes a viewfinder adapter to provide parallax correction.