Causes for uniform base fog

Grim Tuesday · Dec 7, 2019

I just developed two rolls of Delta 400 in one tank. 7.5 minutes HC-110 Dilution B, constant agitation for first 30 and then every 30 seconds for about 5 seconds, fixed with 5 minutes TF-4 with semi-constant agitation. Both of them had images, though it doesn't look like it on the left - it was a test roll for a camera I ended up sending back. The one on the right, that was at the bottom of the two-reel tank and appears to have a uniform base fog. Or at least I think that's what this is. As far as I know the film was in-date and was never stored improperly. See attached picture. Does anyone know what could have caused this? I should also mention that other films from this trip with this camera have come out fine.

Update: I just developed two more rolls of Delta 400 and this time they both have the exact same base fog. One of them was shot with a different camera, at a different time.

Things I feel like are ruled out at this point:

The camera (happened with two cameras, didn't happen with one)
Specific roll issues like expiration, storage, etc... (happened on 3 of 4 rolls, unless I am very unlucky and pulled them all from the same stash except for one -- this will be ruled in or out when I develop a different stock, which I can do tomorrow)
My developing tank light baffle (bottom reel was affected when top one was not)
My dark changing bag (there was one unaffected film)
The developer and fixer (one roll was affected when the other was not)

I still have five more non-delta-400 films to develop tomorrow. Any other variables I should play around with? I'd prefer not to fog any more films if I can avoid it.

Update #2: I was looking on the edge of the film for the emulsion number and bad one is all the same and larger text. Me thinks I may have bought some expired film...

koraks · Dec 8, 2019

That looks like 20 year old film stored in the spent fuel pool of a nuclear power plant...

jimjm · Dec 8, 2019

That looks a lot like some 30 year-old Tri-X I recently developed, that had quite a bit of base fog. It was most likely due to age and improper storage, but I've actually been able to get some good darkroom prints from the roll, so not all may be lost. It doesn't appear that you have any light-leak issues or problems with your processing.
Since the remaining Delta rolls likely have the same base fog, there may be some changes you can make to your processing times and/or try different developers to minimize the impact of this base density. Couldn't give you any specific advice as to what techniques will help, but I think that's the cause of the problem you're seeing here. Good Luck!

Edit: If your non-Delta films have been OK so far, I wouldn't change your development process if the film is reasonably new and stored correctly.

138S · Dec 8, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
(one roll was affected when the other was not)

HC-110 is a low fog developer, if film was not very, very, expired... developer dilution/time/temperature was the same for the 1st and 2nd cases...

IMHO it can be light leaking, inside your tent probably.

ISO 400 films are very sensitive to light leaks, 0.001 Lux during 10 seconds can produce that fog level.

I'd sacrifice one of the rolls to make tests, cut some pieces and make tests.

Today we have a new risk, airports have 3D (CT) new generation RX scanners that fog film.

Grim Tuesday · Dec 8, 2019

If it's expired film, the most expired it could be would be 2016... I will try another light tight changing bag and report back.

138S · Dec 8, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
If it's expired film, the most expired it could be would be 2016... I will try another light tight changing bag and report back.

Or try with the same tent in the dark, to ensure no leak is there, also check your tank.

Grim Tuesday · Dec 8, 2019

The thing I don't get about the tent explanation is why one roll would have been fine.

138S · Dec 8, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
The thing I don't get about the tent explanation is why one roll would have been fine.

Of course I can't tell what happened, but light leaks in a tent can be intermitent, the pin can be more or less obstructed depending on many things, it can take direct light or not, or even you may have produced the pin just after first roll.

First you should clarify is if film is fogged or not, so take an strip of the film and develop it ensuring you have absolutely no light exposure, if it is not fogged the only possible explanation is a light leak because HC-110 is a very stable developer that it does not do weird things.

What is for sure is that 0.001 lux during some 10 seconds would fog your film in that way, yor first batch discards developer, as one of the rolls had no abnormal fog, so or the film came fogged or you have a light leak were you don't suspect it is, IMHO there are no more possibilities.

koraks · Dec 8, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
If it's expired film, the most expired it could be would be 2016

This kind of fog would be really odd for delta 100 this age!

chris77 · Dec 8, 2019

138S said:
Of course I can't tell what happened, but light leaks in a tent can be intermitent, the pin can be more or less obstructed depending on many things, it can take direct light or not, or even you may have produced the pin just after first roll.

First you should clarify is if film is fogged or not, so take an strip of the film and develop it ensuring you have absolutely no light exposure, if it is not fogged the only possible explanation is a light leak because HC-110 is a very stable developer that it does not do weird things.

What is for sure is that 0.001 lux during some 10 seconds would fog your film in that way, yor first batch discards developer, as one of the rolls had no abnormal fog, so or the film came fogged or you have a light leak were you don't suspect it is, IMHO there are no more possibilities.

sorry, i beg to differ. this uniform fog can never be caused by light leak during such operation.

138S · Dec 8, 2019

chris77 said:
sorry, i beg to differ. this uniform fog can never be caused by light leak during such operation.

I've got that uniform fog once when loading the 120 spiral in a room that had some "ambient light", 0.001 Lux ambient light is not something we perceive when eyes are still acommodated to intense light, but in 10s it delivers that fog. I think that such a uniform fog can be produced by "ambient light" in the space the film was handled, if it's not that then film had to came fogged, because 1st and 2nd samples were developed at the same time, if I understood well.

Luis-F-S · Dec 8, 2019

chris77 said:
sorry, i beg to differ. this uniform fog can never be caused by light leak during such operation.

+1!!!! Would not be uniform

138S · Dec 8, 2019

Luis-F-S said:
+1!!!! Would not be uniform

If it not was exposure to light, what is it ?

Consider that both negatives in the image were developed in the same tank

Ozxplorer · Dec 8, 2019

Hi, I’ve had a similar experience! Solved the issue by extending the negative clearing time in the fixer. I suggest you cut off one negative and immerse it in your usual fixer dilution for another 2 minutes or so... do it in the light and observe the negative for further clearing. In future add this “extra time” to your fixing time for Delta 400 using TF-4.

Grim Tuesday · Dec 9, 2019

Ozxplorer said:
Hi, I’ve had a similar experience! Solved the issue by extending the negative clearing time in the fixer. I suggest you cut off one negative and immerse it in your usual fixer dilution for another 2 minutes or so... do it in the light and observe the negative for further clearing. In future add this “extra time” to your fixing time for Delta 400 using TF-4.

I don't think that's it, because one of the rolls was fine and it was developed in the same tank, with the same fixation time.

Kino · Dec 9, 2019

Age, heat and/or chemical exposure can do that to film.

If the only common denominator is the film itself, and it was sealed in the factory pouch before you loaded it, I would guess the film was very poorly stored in a hot place prior to you buying it.

Agulliver · Dec 9, 2019

I've never "achieved" such uniform fog with any sort of light leak. There's always some sort of directional property to the fog pattern.

That looks for all the world like expired film. I have little experience with Delta 400 but I use plenty of 400 ISO B&W film and have done for something like 40 years. It would have to be *very* expired or stored in some sort of incubator or oven for that to happen. Film expired in 2016 wouldn't exhibit that sort of fog unless stored very badly.

But OP is sure that's not the case....so it's a bit of a mystery.

Grim Tuesday · Dec 9, 2019

Actually I'm no longer sure of that. I have been going through my eBay history and it seems I purchased this film in August from someone who made no claims of its storage conditions. It was in a lot of film that was "in-date and recently expired." I've shot some of the other films in the lot and they have been fine.

Saganich · Dec 9, 2019

Bingo

Kino · Dec 9, 2019

If you have more of the film, rather than throw it out, now would be a fine time to get some practical experience with Benzotriazole and see what it can and cannot do.

http://stores.photoformulary.com/benzotriazole/

That is, if you have no experience with the anti-fog additive...

Pentode · Dec 9, 2019

I have no experience with Delta films (save for some Delta 100 I shot about 25 years ago) but I have recently developed both HP5 and Tri-X that were very old and poorly stored and the fog level was just about identical to what you've shown us. Not conclusive evidence, surely, but if it walks like a duck and it sounds like a duck....

Agulliver · Dec 10, 2019

I would say that you've got film that is out of date and was stored in warm conditions.

I recently bought 100 feet of HP5+ which expired in 2010 and was described as "frozen since new in the freezer"...the stuff has fog like your Delta so it was definitely not frozen....but it's usable and I paid peanuts for it. I've used 25 year expired HP5 with less base fog than this recent purchase....

Nodda Duma · Dec 10, 2019

Question: Is that the new formula HC-110 or old formula?

If your HC-110 is the old syrupy formula, add a stop exposure and develop at colder temps, like 60-65 F. Do a clip test for dev times.

If your HC-110 is the reformulated, well... who knows what that really is.

Grim Tuesday · Dec 10, 2019

Unfortunately, it's the new hc-110. I wish I had some of the old stuff to compare with (and I just finished my old bottle, damn!) but based on this high level of fog it seems likely that new hc-110 does not have the fog reducing properties of the old stuff. My working hypothesis is that this film was stored in a hot car for an unknown amount of time before it got to me. This is the first time I've been burned on an eBay film auction and I think I've learned to test and develop a roll first before trusting the stock! This film also happens to be afflicted with the uneven edge printing issue catalogued on the forum in a thread I found from googling, and definitively dates the film as expired circa 2016 even though I've lost the wrappers for these exact rolls. As for the rest of the stock from the eBay auction, I accidently ruined one roll opening a camera that I forgot I had loaded and the other roll is loaded in a camera right now. Hypothesis predicts it will be fogged. If it isn't then I guess back to the drawing board...

MattKing · Dec 10, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
Unfortunately, it's the new hc-110. I wish I had some of the old stuff to compare with (and I just finished my old bottle, damn!) but based on this high level of fog it seems likely that new hc-110 does not have the fog reducing properties of the old stuff.

HC-110 needs to be used in very specific ways if you want to minimize fog. I wouldn't come to any conclusions based on this particular data point

Causes for uniform base fog

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