Carbon Transfer Video

Bob Carnie · Jun 15, 2011

Hi Jim

I am registering with a strosser punch system, the paper is mounted to 20 gage aluminum , for the whole process.
I truly feel that if I can control carbon to the 9th degree that I feel I can with silver I would probably agree with you.
But - just a physicality thought that runs through my mind about single coat carbon.
I feel that to dig deep into the shadows , the highlights will suffer as they may melt away,, this is my opinion only and would love to here how to hold the delicate highlight detail and deep shadow detail with one hot water bath treatment, in my world it cannot be done in a single pass or at least to the potential that I feel I have with split printing silver.
I am splitting the original scene into shadow negs, highlight negs and mid tone negs and playing with multiple pass, just need more time to make a few hundred prints and get my feet more wet.
I am not using inkjet negs but rather silver negs off my lambda. Long way to go.

Bob

Bob

Jim Fitzgerald said:
Bob, I think you may have to try pin registered multi layered carbon printing. Gordon Chapple was doing this and his prints were very unique. Sandy has seen them as has Vaughn. I think you can achieve what you are after with the proper blending of the right pigments in a single transfer. In my own work flow I have successfully matched Pt/Pd prints in tonality. I agree with you assessment of silver, Pt/Pd and carbon to a point. The rich smooth highlights in the first two processes can be achieved in carbon but it is very difficult to do. I have had some success printing high key images but I will admit that Pt/Pd is still a better choice until I refine my process a bit more. With carbon I feel I am not limited in any way. One just needs to refine the work flow. True for any process. I think carbon has the most potential IMO.
Now that is just my .02 worth. It sure is fun pushing the process.

banana_legs · Jun 15, 2011

Bob,
I have been exploring carbon tissue that is first poured with a heavily pigmented gelatine layer, and then topped off with a lightly pigmented, possibly different colour layer. In printing, the light penetrates right through the the light pigment layer to the dark layer for the shadows, but for the highlights, it still goes deep into the light-pigment layer. The resulting relief is non-linear though but does seem to have more scope for retaining the highlights as the 'shadow' layer is thin and develops quickly while the 'highlight' layer is physically thicker and so does not wash out too fast.

I have also tried mixing the 'shadow' layer with a higher sugar concentration than the 'highlight' layer to speed up the development of the shadows; I have not had much success yet as my sugar ratios have been too different and the result is an increased base-fog effect so far, but I intend to keep exploring the possibilities.

A key advantage I find with carbon is the extreme flexibility of the tissue properties and the sensitisation percentages that allow a useful print to be pulled from almost any negative.

Best regards,

Evan

Vaughn · Jun 15, 2011

JMO, but when I make a good carbon print, I feel it combines the best attributes of both silver gelatin and platinum/palladium prints and takes them a step further than either process can go on their own...but then I am a bit biased...

Jim Fitzgerald · Jun 15, 2011

Vaughn said:
JMO, but when I make a good carbon print, I feel it combines the best attributes of both silver gelatin and platinum/palladium prints and takes them a step further than either process can go on their own...but then I am a bit biased...

I could not agree more!

holmburgers · Jun 15, 2011

banana_legs said:
Bob,
I have been exploring carbon tissue that is first poured with a heavily pigmented gelatine layer, and then topped off with a lightly pigmented, possibly different colour layer.....

I'm really glad you are pursuing this avenue.. it's very interesting and probably not a lot of people are experimenting with it.

Marco B · Jun 16, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
IMO - Silver is probably the most wonderful process and the range of tones is incredible with good technique.

IMO - also I will say that Pt Pd has probably the richest tonal range of all process from the mid point up to the beautiful highlights.

IMO- also after seeing Sandy Kings prints, on numerous occasions I will say that Carbon has the most wonderful tones from the upper mid tones down to the deepest shadows.

I keep reading about the "wonderful" tonality of Pt/Pd. However, how much of this is simply due to the fact that it is by definition a contact printing process (well, at least from any practical standpoint of view)? We all know it is far easier to get "wonderful" tonality even on silver gelatine paper in contact printing LF negatives, however, most 35 mm to 4x5 gets enlarged, so you don't have this benefit. I often struggle to get this same look I see on my contact prints (whether 35 mm or 4x5), in print. Yes, it can be done using pre-flashing and dodging and burning, but it still doesn't completely equal contact printing.

So, is Pt/Pd really "magical", or is the most of it simply a by-product of being a contact printing process :confused:

Bob Carnie · Jun 16, 2011

Evan

Do you think blocking masks would be of use? to stop any accumulative light from penetrating into unwanted areas during any exposure.
What I mean is this, when doing photocomp, It was never enough to make a negative of a specific area without making a ruby mask on top that would effectively stop any light from reaching areas you did not want to attack with the negative.
I do this with silver printing where I hold back areas in each filters exposure where I do not want accumulated light.
I am thinking blocking masks can be easily made a variety of ways for this purpose.
I have always envisioned putting the thin layer down first with the highlight negative, and then follow with a thicker shadow area, you seem to be doing it in reverse.
My thoughts are that with pt pd one puts a highlight base down, and then giving a second hit of carbon for the low tones. It is interesting you are doing it with carbon,using a colour second or possible third hit to create a multi toned print. I have been taught a very thick emulsion or tissue method , but I can imagine a series of hits of thinner tissue would give amazing relief or just wait for the last hit to create the relief.
The possibility's are endless, we cannot talk about working with the channels in PS to split ,or even ways of making blocking masks, as the mod cops will stop us as talking the big D , but what an amazing time we have emerged into.
Are you mounting to melemex or aluminum for registration issues?

banana_legs said:
Bob,
I have been exploring carbon tissue that is first poured with a heavily pigmented gelatine layer, and then topped off with a lightly pigmented, possibly different colour layer. In printing, the light penetrates right through the the light pigment layer to the dark layer for the shadows, but for the highlights, it still goes deep into the light-pigment layer. The resulting relief is non-linear though but does seem to have more scope for retaining the highlights as the 'shadow' layer is thin and develops quickly while the 'highlight' layer is physically thicker and so does not wash out too fast.

I have also tried mixing the 'shadow' layer with a higher sugar concentration than the 'highlight' layer to speed up the development of the shadows; I have not had much success yet as my sugar ratios have been too different and the result is an increased base-fog effect so far, but I intend to keep exploring the possibilities.

A key advantage I find with carbon is the extreme flexibility of the tissue properties and the sensitisation percentages that allow a useful print to be pulled from almost any negative.

Best regards,

Evan

Bob Carnie · Jun 16, 2011

I know I am going to be crushed here for saying this- sorry Mr Ware

Pt pd does have wonderful range of highlight mid tone.
But to ask me to swallow the believable black or envision that its black dosen't cut it in my world, Pt Pd just dosen't have a good black and lets move on. I am not talking emotion here but straight on looking at prints by some of the best printers in the world. Black is Black not fake black.

I have seen many pt pd prints , I have made them for others, myself and collect other workers prints in various processes. If someone here can provide me with a print in pt pd that exhibits the blacks that I say are missing I will eat the hat that I am wearing right now.

Silver by far has a better end point range than pt pd, Carbon can get there if you can control the highlights as I believe some workers here can .

If one can convincingly , and predictably and consistantly capture both ends of the curve in Carbon then I would give it a big thumbs up.

Silver can and does:munch:

Marco B said:
I keep reading about the "wonderful" tonality of Pt/Pd. However, how much of this is simply due to the fact that it is by definition a contact printing process (well, at least from any practical standpoint of view)? We all know it is far easier to get "wonderful" tonality even on silver gelatine paper in contact printing LF negatives, however, most 35 mm to 4x5 gets enlarged, so you don't have this benefit. I often struggle to get this same look I see on my contact prints (whether 35 mm or 4x5), in print. Yes, it can be done using pre-flashing and dodging and burning, but it still doesn't completely equal contact printing.

So, is Pt/Pd really "magical", or is the most of it simply a by-product of being a contact printing process :confused:

PVia · Jun 16, 2011

Bob,

I love you my brother but you're being a little extreme here. What about Mr Penn's prints? I know you've seen them in person. The blacks in the Small Trades series were without question black as black could be. The only difference is that black on watercolor paper is not the same as black on gelatin silver paper due to the matte reflective qualities of the wc paper.

BTW, I love the fact that you (and all the printers here) are pushing the boundaries...

MaximusM3 · Jun 16, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
I know I am going to be crushed here for saying this- sorry Mr Ware

Pt pd does have wonderful range of highlight mid tone.
But to ask me to swallow the believable black or envision that its black dosen't cut it in my world, Pt Pd just dosen't have a good black and lets move on. I am not talking emotion here but straight on looking at prints by some of the best printers in the world. Black is Black not fake black.

I have seen many pt pd prints , I have made them for others, myself and collect other workers prints in various processes. If someone here can provide me with a print in pt pd that exhibits the blacks that I say are missing I will eat the hat that I am wearing right now.

Silver by far has a better end point range than pt pd, Carbon can get there if you can control the highlights as I believe some workers here can .

If one can convincingly , and predictably and consistantly capture both ends of the curve in Carbon then I would give it a big thumbs up.

Silver can and does:munch:

Bob,

I am no master printer, but I believe that what you are saying certainly holds much truth, at least from what I have seen.
Therefore, at the end of the day, do you believe that processes such as pt/pd, carbon, are worth the effort when considering various pitfalls (chemical safety and complexity of preparing materials, time, etc)? Of course, much relies on the fact that an image should be worth the trouble and be suited to such processes before embarking on the journey but, aside from ultra large format, silver can still deliver the best of all worlds with a less complex workflow.
The only thing that holds much intrigue for me when I think of carbon, is the work of Sandy King with digital negatives. There I see endless possibilities in marrying technology with classic processes for some incredible work. This is of course simply my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.

Best,

Max

Bob Carnie · Jun 16, 2011

Just for the record, I am learning multiple hit Pt Pd and multiple hit Carbon as I see them as beautiful printing processes that are so worthy of learning and producing prints.

I just want to defend the silver darkroom, because Silver is a very , very beautiful process and offers the worker much room.

I want it all , I have been printing silver now for awhile and I want to include pt pd and carbon, but black is black.
Sandy Kings negs are indeed done by the big D method on inkjet material.
Yes you are right the mixing of the big D and analogue historical processes is incredible.

I just finished a show- original capture- Cannon Mark 3- PS the image- output off Lambda digital enlarger- expose onto Ortho 25 silver gelatin film processed in HC110 in large analoque trays in a analogue wet darkroom, neg size was 18 x28 inches, then a contact print on Ilford Warmtone and processed in Lith Developer.
Tri Toned with chemicals.

Now who's your daddy, the best of all worlds and the prints to my eye's are very analogue enlarger print quality.

I am going to get fried by the Moderator Squad for this post.

MaximusM3 said:
Bob,

I am no master printer, but I believe that what you are saying certainly holds much truth, at least from what I have seen.
Therefore, at the end of the day, do you believe that processes such as pt/pd, carbon, are worth the effort when considering various pitfalls (chemical safety and complexity of preparing materials, time, etc)? Of course, much relies on the fact that an image should be worth the trouble and be suited to such processes before embarking on the journey but, aside from ultra large format, silver can still deliver the best of all worlds with a less complex workflow.
The only thing that holds much intrigue for me when I think of carbon, is the work of Sandy King with digital negatives. There I see endless possibilities in marrying technology with classic processes for some incredible work. This is of course simply my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.

Best,

Max

Bob Carnie · Jun 16, 2011

Ok maybe a bit over the top with my opinions, but I have to believe my eyes when looking at prints and call it like I see it.
I saw three of those prints here before they got auctioned off.
Good Blacks, on watercolour paper mounted to aluminum and register punch still there.
Mr Penn is the big influence on me regarding multiple hit printing, now HE was one who really pushed boundaries.

PVia said:
Bob,

I love you my brother but you're being a little extreme here. What about Mr Penn's prints? I know you've seen them in person. The blacks in the Small Trades series were without question black as black could be. The only difference is that black on watercolor paper is not the same as black on gelatin silver paper due to the matte reflective qualities of the wc paper.

BTW, I love the fact that you (and all the printers here) are pushing the boundaries...

MaximusM3 · Jun 16, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
I just finished a show- original capture- Cannon Mark 3- PS the image- output off Lambda digital enlarger- expose onto Ortho 25 silver gelatin film processed in HC110 in large analoque trays in a analogue wet darkroom, neg size was 18 x28 inches, then a contact print on Ilford Warmtone and processed in Lith Developer.
Tri Toned with chemicals.

Now who's your daddy, the best of all worlds and the prints to my eye's are very analogue enlarger print quality.

I am going to get fried by the Moderator Squad for this post.

Oh boy...yes, that sounds quite special, Bob! I know this will get zapped too but we can't deny the amazing possibilities of post processing in PS, creating a big ass negative from a large file and then printing it with a darkroom process. It has to look pretty incredible! Anyway, we digress here..

MaximusM3 · Jun 16, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
I just finished a show- original capture- Cannon Mark 3- PS the image- output off Lambda digital enlarger- expose onto Ortho 25 silver gelatin film processed in HC110 in large analoque trays in a analogue wet darkroom, neg size was 18 x28 inches, then a contact print on Ilford Warmtone and processed in Lith Developer.
Tri Toned with chemicals.

Now who's your daddy, the best of all worlds and the prints to my eye's are very analogue enlarger print quality.

I am going to get fried by the Moderator Squad for this post.

...and I just wish I had $200K to spend on a Lambda...or even a De Vere 504DS

PVia · Jun 16, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
Mr Penn is the big influence on me regarding multiple hit printing, now HE was one who really pushed boundaries.

A moment of silence for the master...

PVia · Jun 16, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
I just want to defend the silver darkroom, because Silver is a very , very beautiful process and offers the worker much room.

Absolutely agree...

Curt · Jun 16, 2011

Soooooo, I enjoyed the video and appreciate the work done to present a discription of a complicated process.

paul_c5x4 · Jun 16, 2011

paulie said:
i have now stopped using the alcohol in my glop, cant buy it here in the u.k due to the government banning its sale on the grounds that its cheaper then cheap vodka, damn you hard drinkers...

Although the likes of Boots and other local chemists have stopped selling IPA, you can still get quantities from (some) automotive paint suppliers and old fashion hardware stores. If you want something a little stronger, get yourself a licence from HM.RC to purchase and use Industrial Denatured Alcohol (IDA) - I'm waiting for mine to arrive and then I can buy the stuff by the gallon :munch:

michaelbsc · Jun 16, 2011

paul_c5x4 said:
....If you want something a little stronger, get yourself a licence from HM.RC to purchase and use Industrial Denatured Alcohol (IDA) - I'm waiting for mine to arrive and then I can buy the stuff by the gallon.

Wow, you need a license to buy denatured?!

The twisted ways our governments try to control us.

For all the stupid stuff you *CANNOT* buy here in the US, I can walk into any big box home supply store and get a shopping cart of denatured alcohol.

Is the license requirement a control measure, or a tax revenue measure? Or both?

Vlad Soare · Jun 17, 2011

Vaughn said:
JMO, but when I make a good carbon print, I feel it combines the best attributes of both silver gelatin and platinum/palladium prints and takes them a step further than either process can go on their own...but then I am a bit biased...

Vaughn, are you able to get a d-max comparable to FB silver gelatin papers? I'm just a beginner, and I'm probably doing something wrong, but I can't seem to get blacks as deep as I can get on a regular glossy FB paper, let alone on Lodima. In fact, even the dry, unexposed tissue itself is not as black as the blacks in a silver print, so it doesn't seem to be a matter of exposure or contrast. :confused:

paul_c5x4 · Jun 17, 2011

michaelbsc said:
Wow, you need a license to buy denatured?!

Is the license requirement a control measure, or a tax revenue measure? Or both?

There are a number of different grades of ethanol available in the UK and Europe - Quoting from HM Revenue & Customs:

There are three classes of denatured alcohol:
Completely Denatured Alcohol (CDA)
Industrial Denatured Alcohol (IDA)
Trade Specific Denatured Alcohol (TSDA)
These are made unsuitable for drinking by the addition of denaturants.

Completely denatured alcohol (CDA) is the most heavily denatured alcohol. The standard formulation for CDA produced in the UK is 90 parts by volume of alcohol, 9.5 parts by volume of wood naphtha, or a substitute for wood naphtha and 0.5 parts by volume of crude pyridine. To each 1,000 litres of which is added 3.75 litres of mineral naphtha (petroleum oil) and 1.5 grammes of synthetic organic dyestuff (methyl violet).

Industrial denatured alcohol (IDA) is the grade of denatured alcohol designed for industrial use. It consists of 95 parts by volume of alcohol and 5 parts by volume of wood naphtha, or a substitute for wood naphtha.

TSDA formulations are types of denatured alcohol approved to meet specific trade needs.

CDA is dyed purple and leaves a stain when evaporated - It is freely available over the counter without restriction and can be purchased & used by the general public without the need for a licence or limit on quantities.
IDA does not contain methyl violet (the purple dye), but supply and use is restricted.
TSDA - To all intents and purposes, is unobtainable unless you work in specific industries and have specific need for it. i.e. scientific research. Photography is not one of the recognised uses for TSDA.

Any alcohol destined for consumption attracts additional taxes, which CDA/IDA is exempt - Not that you'd want to drink the stuff anyway.
Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) is a completely different liquid, often called "rubbing alcohol" - It's use and availability is unrestricted, but like CDA, is increasingly difficult to find in retail shops... Blame the substance abusers and winos for that.

Vlad Soare · Jun 17, 2011

Blame the substance abusers and winos for that.

No. That's the official excuse of the government, but I'm not buying it.
I blame the government for that. Blaming it on substance abusers is just an attempt to conceal the government's incompetence in dealing with the actual problem.

Jim Fitzgerald · Jun 17, 2011

Vlad, I'm getting blacks that are in the 2.05 to 2.20 DR with my prints. Most are around 2.00 to 2.05. But it is not about the deepest black one can get, at least for me. It is about over all tonal range. This is why I print carbon, tonal range.

Vlad Soare · Jun 17, 2011

But it is not about the deepest black one can get,

Indeed, it's not. But it's nice to know that you can get it if you want to.
I love the process, by the way. My goal is to make better prints on carbon than I can make on Lodima. So far Lodima is winning, but I'll keep on trying.

holmburgers · Jun 17, 2011

Vlad Soare said:
In fact, even the dry, unexposed tissue itself is not as black as the blacks in a silver print, so it doesn't seem to be a matter of exposure or contrast. :confused:

If the black's not there in the tissue, it can't possibly be there in the print. That was the criteria for pigment (ink) concentration in my 1st tissues.

Carbon Transfer Video

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency