Carbon Transfer Video

CMB · Jun 11, 2011

Dichromate Toxicity

OK, OK, I'm easy.

Lets accept the statement that this is not a How to video (and therefore not responsible for its contents) and that posting Health and Safety information is symptomatic of much that is wrong with America today.

I still have a question:

Why is the worker in the video not wearing gloves to protect his hands when handling dichromate?

Possible answers:

1. He is unaware of the serious risks of using dichromate without protective covering.

2. He doesn't care.

"Forgetting to put them on" seems to be a combination of 1 & 2.

Even Sandy King, who reports having poured dichromate into his septic tank for over 20 years with "no risk", advises workers: "You should also plan to wear protective gloves (latex or nitrile) when immersing your hands in water solutions that contain dichromate, as for example when mating the sensitized and exposed tissue to its final support. The very weak dichromate solutions are not toxic at this point but they can cause severe dermatological problems over time if you work without gloves."

Cheers,

Charles

eclarke · Jun 11, 2011

CMB said:
Andrew O'Neill said:

Here is a video I made. It's an overview of the carbon transfer printing process.

Dichromate is a highly toxic and corrosive carcinogen which should be used with great care. It is therefore quite alarming to see a how-to video intended primarily for novices in which dichromate sensitized carbon tissue is handled at various stages using gloveless hands. The procedure shown is dangerous not only for its potential for contact dermatitis but also for poisoning if the contaminated fingers come into contact with the mouth or food of the process worker. Furthermore, dichromate in the power form (e.g.weighing) can be lethal if inhaled and a toxic dust mask should be worn. I suggest the video be modified and/or a warning be posted in the comments section.

Charles Berger

Click to expand...

Charles, do you work in an office, even worse in a government office? Evan Clarke

Leigh B · Jun 11, 2011

CMB said:
Why is the worker in the video not wearing gloves to protect his hands when handling dichromate?

I just viewed the video again to be sure of the sequence of events.

At no point in the sensitizing process did he "handle" dichromate, hence no need for gloves.

At all times he used a utensil or container.

- Leigh

CMB · Jun 11, 2011

Dichromate Toxicity

Leigh B said:
At no point in the sensitizing process did he "handle" dichromate, hence no need for gloves.
- Leigh

Thank you Leigh for your erroneous statement that since dichromate was never handled without using a utensil or container there is/was "no need for gloves."

This illustrates the need for more information about the toxicity of dichromate. Although the forum archives are replete with examples and warnings about the use of dichromate, including specific instructions to wear gloves "when mating the sensitized and exposed tissue to its final support" (which was clearly done without gloves in the video), many workers are still not fully cognizant of the dangers involved in the dichromate colloid process.

I hope that these conversations will raise awareness of the very serious health issues caused by the unprotected use (and disposal) of dichromate.

michaelbsc · Jun 11, 2011

I think I'm going to drink half a bottle of Iodine.

Chill. There's nowhere near enough information in the video to try it. So by the time one could do some research you would know about the chemicals.

Le

Bob Carnie · Jun 12, 2011

I am agreeing with CMB here, though I do like the video , thank you Andrew,

This forum has dedicated long time workers and very first time newbies.
I think that the use of gloves is important for all the work/processes we do . I found out the hard way back in the early 90's with silver chemistry, I was proud to have the black fingers as described in the books by our early practicioners.
Only problem was that at a certain point I could not go back in the darkroom.

CMB , is a hero of mine and I look up to him and what he writes is very important to me, we are extremely lucky to have him here on APUG and I hope to sticky everything he writes, and for those not aware of what he has accomplished , a bit of research would be wise.
There is an old saying regarding a fellow like Charles B. HE HAS FORGOTTEN MORE ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY THAN MOST OF US KNOW.

Before I let any students visit my darkroom, and today there are many visits as all the Univesity's in our area have ripped out darkrooms, we do let them handle simple printmaking proceedures, and every single one wears gloves no matter what they are processing.

I read his comments quite differently than some here , obviously, the argument pro / con the warning lables reminds me of the first thread on APUG that I lost it, over people disucssing whether it was safe to dump fix down the drain.
I put two people on ignore from that thread alone, and since I have been here on this forum I have only put two people on ignore.

Some of the processes we work with are extremely safe, and others can be problematic if you do not understand the materials you are working with or how to handle them. We live in a society where very fast results are needed, this can lead to fast and sloppy technique , which I am sure CMB is referring too.

Leigh B · Jun 12, 2011

CMB said:
Thank you Leigh for your erroneous statement that since dichromate was never handled without using a utensil or container there is/was "no need for gloves."

Well, the MSDS from Fisher Scientific (MSDS# 19370) says:
"Harmful if absorbed through the skin." and
"Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing."

Those statements are addressing direct contact with the skin.

My concern is not with hazard evaluation and mitigation. It's with your comments about the video and your suggestion that every authored work should be laced with cautionary statements.

It's the individual's responsibility to assess the safety of any endeavor, including crossing the street.

- Leigh

MaximusM3 · Jun 12, 2011

I know zippo about carbon transfer process but, without a hint of a doubt, I would pay close attention to anything that Charles Berger has to say...and Bob Carnie of course.

gmikol · Jun 12, 2011

Leigh B said:
Well, the MSDS from Fisher Scientific (MSDS# 19370) says:
"Harmful if absorbed through the skin." and
"Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing."

Those statements are addressing direct contact with the skin.

Leigh...

I had started writing a very long and detailed response to this thread, but your post has given me an opportunity to abbreviate it.

Direct contact with the skin is not the only potential hazard of dichromate. Inhalation of dust and ingestion are also very significant hazards. And measuring, sensitizing, handling sensitized tissues, and mating without gloves has the potential for transfer from one's hands to mouth or mucous membranes.

It is 100% Andrew's responsibility to protect (or not) himself. Same as it is with the rest of us.

But it is our responsibility to not minimize or dismiss the potential hazards when discussing them in detail on a public and open forum. I still exempt Andrew's video from this, it is not discussing the matter "in detail" IMO, as we are now.

I see your posts as minimizing or dismissing the potential risks. You've identified yourself as a machinist. I see the posts you're making here as being equivalent to saying that it is acceptable to wear long, loose sleeves while working on a lathe, as long as one is careful to avoid "direct contact" of the sleeve with the spinning workpiece or chuck.

I really think that any future discussion of this should be moved to its own thread, to avoid any more hijacking of Andrew's thread.

--Greg

eclarke · Jun 12, 2011

I'm a machinst, woodworker, chemist and photographer. Regardless of the protection one takes to maintain a delicate existence.. we will all die. Pursue the high qualities of life... EC

paulie · Jun 12, 2011

dichromate is great as a cure for sore throats, and gives your coat a good shine too, get over it....silver nitrate makes a great eye wash, petrol protects you from the heat of a fire .... i get so annoyed by do gooders teachers pets. wear gloves dont wear gloves ,,,,who bloody cares.

fantastic video, just the way i make my tissues ,except i use the hot rod

Leigh B · Jun 12, 2011

gmikol said:
I see your posts as minimizing or dismissing the potential risks. You've identified yourself as a machinist. I see the posts you're making here as being equivalent to saying that it is acceptable to wear long, loose sleeves while working on a lathe, as long as one is careful to avoid "direct contact" of the sleeve with the spinning workpiece or chuck.

Yep. Absolutely true. I also have a very long beard. And a very nice lathe.
I'm responsible for keeping myself safe, regardless of what I'm doing or how.
It's nobody else's business. Certainly nobody is obliged to warn me of any potential dangers.

My whole gripe is not about hazards or safety. I take those subjects very seriously. I've been doing machine work for over 40 years and never had an accident.

My gripe is with the concept that individuals are responsible for warning others, when the "others" are apparently not responsible for their own actions.

How am I more responsible for what you do than you are?

- Leigh

gmikol · Jun 12, 2011

Leigh B said:
How am I more responsible for what you do than you are?

You're not, but we are all responsible to the "collective knowledge" for making sure that accurate information is out there and archived, and that potential risks aren't minimized or dismissed for those who come after us.

And now I'm walking away from this thread since it seems I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this topic, so I might as well let it rest.

--Greg

mark · Jun 13, 2011

Thanks Andrew this video cleared up some questions I had about the process. Nice over view. I will leave the safety talk to others.

Curt · Jun 13, 2011

Soon no one will offer a video with all the negatives comments posted here. Those persons with safety concerns should start a thread so we can pick their suggestions apart.

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2011

Talk to us after 35 years in the darkroom, {who bloody cares}, its obvious you don't.

I have a suggestion for where to put the hot rod.

paulie said:
dichromate is great as a cure for sore throats, and gives your coat a good shine too, get over it....silver nitrate makes a great eye wash, petrol protects you from the heat of a fire .... i get so annoyed by do gooders teachers pets. wear gloves dont wear gloves ,,,,who bloody cares.

fantastic video, just the way i make my tissues ,except i use the hot rod

holmburgers · Jun 13, 2011

Anyone who might be discouraged from posting a video for fear of the comments that might be posted is spineless, or at least should reconsider their motives in doing so.

This video still stands on its own merit.

CMB was merely pointing out the hazards of dichromates, and a good point about wearing gloves during the transfer; wherein there is a small amount of dichromate in the tissue that will undoubtedly leach into the tray water. This is something I admit to not doing the few times I've done carbon, and will do henceforth. So, I learned something incredibly valuable from the comments.

The negativity is coming from those who got defensive about the comments and as usual, blew the whole thing out of proportion.

Accept the safety posts for what they are and leave it at that.

My 4¢

sandholm · Jun 13, 2011

great video loved it, this is a process that I really want to get into.

thanks.

paulie · Jun 13, 2011

Talk to us after 35 years in the darkroom, {who bloody cares}, its obvious you don't.

I have a suggestion for where to put the hot rod

why doesnt that surprise me ,dont forget to wear your gloves......bends over in anticipation

JBrunner · Jun 13, 2011

Those wishing to discuss chemical safety should do so in another thread. Further derailing of this thread will be deleted without comment.

vyshemirsky · Jun 13, 2011

Honestly, I had a few questions about the fine details of the process, but now everything is lost under a pile of off topic posts. Sad. I really loved the video anyway.

paulie · Jun 13, 2011

at last a voice of reason, thanks mate.

a quick comment, i have now stopped using the alcohol in my glop, cant buy it here in the u.k due to the government banning its sale on the grounds that its cheaper then cheap vodka, damn you hard drinkers...

sorry got of track there, it has made no difference to my glop pour , i guess the hot rod made all the difference, once i removed it from my butt that is lol

i use a old shower curtain rail found next to my neighbours bin, its mild steel tube that i sealed up at one end with a cork , and fill with boiling water and cork the top. works like a charm

i roll it across the magnetic frame and the glop gets all it imperfections removed, maybe ill make a video of that part of the process to add to the op great vid

cheers paul

Leigh B · Jun 13, 2011

My apologies to the group for my OT rant. CMB's post hit a nerve that's quite sensitive. I think he should also apologize for his OT post.

I request that the moderators delete my OT posts, and suggest they do the same with the others.

The video is excellent, and I highly recommend it to anyone with an interest in carbon transfer.

Thanks for posting it, Andy.

- Leigh

mmelvis · Jun 13, 2011

Great video to a very interesting process, looks like a very detailed process for printing.

vyshemirsky · Jun 14, 2011

Paulie, that is a great idea! I would really appreciate a video on using a hot rod (for smoothing out glop that is), and I think others would be interested too.

Here in the UK you can get cheap isopropyl alcohol (IPA). It is not suitable for drinking but works well as a surfactant. Sold in Maplin, maybe B&Q. I bought mine from eBay.

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