Can't Figure Out Film Pricing

onepuff · Dec 16, 2013

Here in the UK there is a supplier in Lancashire selling HP5 via mail order for the equivalent of USD 7.17 per 36 roll and Tri-X for USD 7.00 so there are some cheaper places to source film though it still doesn't explain the discrepancy with US prices. I've been buying film from Germany recently as it's still slightly cheaper than the UK even with shipping.

trythis · Dec 16, 2013

onepuff said:
Here in the UK... some cheaper places to source film though it still doesn't explain the discrepancy with US prices...

Here in the US, we have very cheap labor rules. Northern European countries have interesting things like required paid maternity leave for a YEAR! They have health care for everyone; yes, FREE health care for everyone. My experience is from what I have observed from regular visits to Denmark over the last 10 years.

In the USA, your standard of living is up to your employer, basically.
In the USA the minimum wage requires that you need food stamps depending on where you live.

Paying for the higher base standard of living = more expensive film.

MattKing · Dec 16, 2013

The realities of the distribution system are as important as all the factors mentioned above.

Kodak used to be its own distributor. Prices were relatively stable, because with the exception of shipping costs and tariffs, most of the retailers could purchase film for the same price as other retailers.

Now that there are intervening middle wholesale vendors, prices are all over the map.

The US distributor that sells Ilford to B &H sells it for less than Harman or its distributors sells to UK retailers.

jp498 · Dec 16, 2013

hdeyong said:
This makes absolutely no sense. Even figuring in the inclusive taxes of England and France, there is still a huge discrepancy.
France and England have the same sales tax rate, and yet Tri-X is almost $1.30 a roll less in France than it is in England.
Luckily, I'll be in Toronto for a couple of months, and can buy my film in New York and have it sent to me there.
It looks like it's every man for himself.

When you get that all figured out, move on to pricing discrepencies of petroleum products between countries.

mgb74 · Dec 16, 2013

There are differences that are not easily explainable by distribution costs and taxes.

But are you comparing "apples to apples" when it comes to the retailers? For example, B&H will be a lot cheaper than a smaller retailer in another part of New York.

Xmas · Dec 17, 2013

local temp is 40F
Whisky is not cheap here but you can make it yourself in the vernacular it is called 'the wee still' not poteen!
Lots of the film I use was imported by people who have just gone to dark side... or expired surveillance film may need to start importing soon.
In local shop Ilford and Kodak 135 is the same price.
HP5, XP2, BW400CN all 135... so it is not manufacture or distribution... this is termed 'mug punter'.
and Australia are teaching us to white wash.

hdeyong · Dec 17, 2013

I think the most relevant points contributed are the local cost of wages, taxes and property. In the UK and France, (where I live most of the time), there is a 20% tax included, whereas in New York, there is a small sales tax added afterwards, and then only if you live in the state. If it's shipped out, there isn't even that small amount.
Also, yes, the social services like free medical coverage enjoyed in Canada and Europe definitely costs a fair bit and the money has to come from somewhere. Property probably mixes in, but the lowest prices are places like Adorama, and I don't think you're going to buy their or B&H's buildings in New York City with leftover beer money.
I checked out Macodirect in Germany, and they are competitive. Also, there are good discounts available here in France if I buy 50 rolls at a time, which is no problem.
Isn't it all good fun?

lightwisps · Dec 17, 2013

If I may suggest contact Rob at Big Camera. He advertises here from time to time and is located just outside of Toronto. He is well stocked in film, chemicals and paper as well as LF cameras. He is very honest and ships very quickly. I now use him exclusively. If you have trouble finding him, PM me and I will give you the contacts. Don

Tony Egan · Dec 17, 2013

In Sydney, the biggest city in Australia, there are very few stores still carrying film and those they do usually have a pitiful, straggle of orphan boxes in a dingy corner somewhere. I usually buy from B&H or Freestyle 30 or 40 rolls at a time in various formats. Recently I had to make an emergency purchase as my latest order was in transit. The last 2 rolls of FP4 on the shelf for $15 Canadian each. Gulp.
Count your lucky stars, but I would still rather live here

hdeyong · Dec 17, 2013

Having been through over 50 Canadian winters, I can see why you'd rather live in Sydney.

Felinik · Dec 17, 2013

Nuff said:
I think all the people in Europe should check http://www.macodirect.de/
Their prices are pretty good and I bought film from them and B&H.

Not really that good.. Delta 400 in bulk 100' (30.5 meters) is 75 eur PLUS shipping from Maco… Shipping from Germany to France is about 14-18 euros.

Same stuff; Adorama + USPS Priority Intl. : 92.00 USD = 67 EUR

Next time I'll drop two of those 100' rolls in the box, will stay under the max weight for the same shipping rate, and save even more...

Sad but true!

Cheers
JF

pentaxuser · Dec 17, 2013

Well it seems that jimbop from the U.K. on another thread believes that he has figured out film pricing. He intends to buy it from Freestyle in the U.S. instead of U.K. retailers! The savings may not be as big as he hopes but I wish him well and I detect some small signs that the massive price differential between the U.S. and the U.K. and Europe is beginning to be appreciated by a bigger number of APUGers than I had previously detected.

So far I have yet to see any kind of rigorous defence that justifies this difference in price on straight incontrovertible economic facts.

However unless some individual or company can undertake mass importation and take advantage of the economics of scale the benefits to the average user's film and other materials volume may mean that the effort of ordering from the U.S. is not matched or barely matched by the reward.

That conclusion will also be the one drawn by the manufacturer(s) and in a nutshell means or so they think, that it will never be more than a small irritation to them.

However I do hope that this rise in user concern over price differentials will at least make the manufacturer(s) think.

I will not however hold my breath

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2013

Take a look at (there was a url link here which no longer exists) may be you can combine your order with his.

Jim Taylor · Dec 17, 2013

Thanks Pentaxuser and Sirius... it was reading this thread in the first place that got me thinking about how the disparity in film prices might play out across other consumables too.

Having read through the tomes of information provided by HMRC, I reckon that you're assertion that the savings might not be that great are correct.

It would seem that the only way to benefit from ordering from overseas would be to order in small quantities (you pay customs duty on stated order values of >£135 and VAT on anything over £15).

Alan Klein · Dec 17, 2013

Higher taxes, duties, etc. Europe has to pay for its free healthcare somehow.

analoguey · Dec 18, 2013

When I was in the UK, and considering buying Bike(motorcycle) gear -helmets, riding suit etc.,, I was shocked to see everything cost twice as much as it did in the US(all things being manufactured in China). Soon figured out the reason - retailers basically removed the $ sign next to the price and substituted the £ sign. Accounted for most of the difference.
I saw similar things on camera related goods.(although less that way)
I suspect the same has happened with the film. 5$ becomes 5£.

Sent from Tap-a-talk

mgb74 · Dec 18, 2013

analoguey said:
When I was in the UK, and considering buying Bike(motorcycle) gear -helmets, riding suit etc.,, I was shocked to see everything cost twice as much as it did in the US(all things being manufactured in China). Soon figured out the reason - retailers basically removed the $ sign next to the price and substituted the £ sign. Accounted for most of the difference.
I saw similar things on camera related goods.(although less that way)
I suspect the same has happened with the film. 5$ becomes 5£.

Sent from Tap-a-talk

I've seen this on small value items - especially items that cost "1" (whether $, £, ).

European countries rely more on VAT tax which increases the cost of items where the US relies more on income taxes. Plus sales taxes, but they are not collected on mail order (yet). On top of that, you're looking at US retailers (B&H, Freestyle) that are significantly cheaper than local US retailers.

I remember "way back when" that Japanese cameras were cheaper in the US than in Japan (when they were still manufactured in Japan).

mr rusty · Dec 18, 2013

However I do hope that this rise in user concern over price differentials will at least make the manufacturer(s) think.

I would be very surprised if the wholesale price of materials ex-works from any manufacturer varies that much no matter where the product ends up. May be some scales for volumes, but I doubt different prices for different markets.

The difference in end-user price is certainly going to be the local factors including the elements that cover overheads and this will be different in each country. Similarly sales tax/VAT are treated differently.

Ultimately the manufacturers shift the same amount of product wherever it is bought from.

We must be careful what we wish for. At the moment we have some interested retailers who are offering a selection of products from US, UK, EU, RU. If we pick and choose where we buy the volume from to the extent that these retailers can't cover their overhead, then we lose the ability to have local easy access to an interesting range of products, and we could end up with the choice of importing or buying from the likes of amazon. I thing Aus/NZ is in a far worse situation than UK as far as I can tell in this respect.

We have already lost the local high-street shop to on-line. We risk losing the local (country) on-line as well if we are not careful.

Yes, this is a philosophical point of view and when it comes to spending your own money, it is sometimes difficult to be altruistic, but "use it or lose it" is as true today as it's ever been.

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2013

If they have to pay for it, how can it be free?

pentaxuser · Dec 18, 2013

Alan Klein said:
Higher taxes, duties, etc. Europe has to pay for its free healthcare somehow.

I would respectfully contend that this catch-all statement may be too simplistic. Tis true we have a VAT(value added tax) in the U.K. of 20% and many European countries are similar but the VAT v U.S. state sales taxes which are lower doesn't appear to account for the difference. As far as personal taxation is concerned which does clearly help to pay for free healthcare, I cannot see the link with higher Ilford, Kodak etc prices

pentaxuser

pdeeh · Dec 18, 2013

I still find it hard to understand why so many in the US use "free health care" as a term of disapprobation (if not abuse)

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2013

pdeeh said:
I still find it hard to understand why so many in the US use "free health care" as a term of disapprobation (if not abuse)

H L Mencken "No one in this world, so far as I know and I have searched the record for years, and employed agents to help me has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken

Thomas Bertilsson · Dec 18, 2013

pentaxuser said:
I would respectfully contend that this catch-all statement may be too simplistic. Tis true we have a VAT(value added tax) in the U.K. of 20% and many European countries are similar but the VAT v U.S. state sales taxes which are lower doesn't appear to account for the difference. As far as personal taxation is concerned which does clearly help to pay for free healthcare, I cannot see the link with higher Ilford, Kodak etc prices

pentaxuser

I think that the higher retail taxes are only a part of it. Could it be that overhead in business operations have something to do with it as well?

To echo mr rusty above, all we see compared here is what the films sell for in retail. Presumably each seller, regardless of where they are located, would require a certain amount of profit on each sale to insure a healthy margin.
What we don't know is what Ilford charges the resellers in each of the countries, and that's the number that should be compared to get a true comparison across these countries. The retail price of an item does not necessarily compare well to the actual cost of the item.

Felinik · Dec 18, 2013

mr rusty said:
We must be careful what we wish for. At the moment we have some interested retailers who are offering a selection of products from US, UK, EU, RU. If we pick and choose where we buy the volume from to the extent that these retailers can't cover their overhead, then we lose the ability to have local easy access to an interesting range of products, and we could end up with the choice of importing or buying from the likes of amazon. I thing Aus/NZ is in a far worse situation than UK as far as I can tell in this respect.

We have already lost the local high-street shop to on-line. We risk losing the local (country) on-line as well if we are not careful.

Yes, this is a philosophical point of view and when it comes to spending your own money, it is sometimes difficult to be altruistic, but "use it or lose it" is as true today as it's ever been.

If this would end up in an EU-wide cheap online store with overnight shipping options, and 3-day shipping cheap, with full stock of everything, I'd prefer this any day of the week. As for now I turn to Freestyle, Adorama and BH anyway...

This has happened in the music industry (studio/recording/instruments) where the German online superstore Thomann.de is the market dominator in retail, and the are BY FAR honoring their slogan; Better, Faster, Cheaper..

I don't say this is ideal, but rather a great cheap online store than no option at all...

pentaxuser · Dec 18, 2013

Thomas Bertilsson said:
To echo mr rusty above, all we see compared here is what the films sell for in retail. Presumably each seller, regardless of where they are located, would require a certain amount of profit on each sale to insure a healthy margin.
What we don't know is what Ilford charges the resellers in each of the countries, and that's the number that should be compared to get a true comparison across these countries. The retail price of an item does not necessarily compare well to the actual cost of the item.

All true Thomas and what Ilford or any other maker charges is key to this issue and it's the price we are unlikely ever to know. However if we assume that there are sufficient retailers in the U.K. to get us close to competition and I think this is a fair assumption, then if each and every one of these retailers charges more than in the U.S. then it suggests that Ilford or any other maker's price to those retailers leads to the need to charge a higher retail price by all the U.K retailers.

I continue to remain sceptical about external(outside the control of the producer) circumstances explaining the U.S. v U.K. differential

Nice to see you helping to keep this thread on track. Let's make sure it doesn't become a discussion about the pros and cons of a European "free health service" versus the U.S version. That's for the Lounge

pentaxuser

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