Canon F1n vs. Nikon F2? Really, is one better than the other?

blockend · Dec 9, 2014

There's a difference between recognising the merits of camera systems retrospectively, and opting for one at the time. 35mm is a historical commodity so far as camera development is concerned. We can look back at what was and what might have been, secure in the knowledge the real history is done and dusted. Now film users face a different set of criteria, like relative cost of bodies and lenses, availability of servicing and parts, resale values, etc.

Very few working pros rely on their 35mm film camera to pay the bills in 2014, never mind survive armed combat, so the wants list has shifted in the last decade or so. I use some cameras because they are crappy. Plastic SLRs and compacts whose market value is little more than a disposable which I can stick in places I wouldn't dare put anything better. The clock is ticking on their LCDs, but they've lasted twenty years and will probably see in another ten. Nobody is claiming they're great cameras, but they fit an evolutionary niche in the current environment.
Arguing which professional 35mm SLR is best is like arguing which former heavyweight boxer was best. Both were great in their day, both can still pack a punch, but time has moved on.

benjiboy · Dec 9, 2014

blockend said:
There's a difference between recognising the merits of camera systems retrospectively, and opting for one at the time. 35mm is a historical commodity so far as camera development is concerned. We can look back at what was and what might have been, secure in the knowledge the real history is done and dusted. Now film users face a different set of criteria, like relative cost of bodies and lenses, availability of servicing and parts, resale values, etc.

Very few working pros rely on their 35mm film camera to pay the bills in 2014, never mind survive armed combat, so the wants list has shifted in the last decade or so. I use some cameras because they are crappy. Plastic SLRs and compacts whose market value is little more than a disposable which I can stick in places I wouldn't dare put anything better. The clock is ticking on their LCDs, but they've lasted twenty years and will probably see in another ten. Nobody is claiming they're great cameras, but they fit an evolutionary niche in the current environment.
Arguing which professional 35mm SLR is best is like arguing which former heavyweight boxer was best. Both were great in their day, both can still pack a punch, but time has moved on.

Joe Louis, (The Brown Bomber ) was the greatest heavyweight boxer ever who retired undefeated as World Heavyweight Champion after holding the title against all comers for twelve years there was nobody better.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 9, 2014

benjiboy said:
Joe Louis, (The Brown Bomber ) was the greatest heavyweight boxer ever who retired undefeated as World Heavyweight Champion after holding the title against all comers for twelve years there was nobody better.

Not to mention the fact that he handed Schmeling (hitler's 'Aryan hope') his head. I've always felt bad for Max Schmeling.

blockend · Dec 9, 2014

benjiboy said:
Joe Louis, (The Brown Bomber ) was the greatest heavyweight boxer ever who retired undefeated as World Heavyweight Champion after holding the title against all comers for twelve years there was nobody better.

But would you expect him to defend his title after forty years as a professional?

E. von Hoegh · Dec 9, 2014

blockend said:
But would you expect him to defend his title after forty years as a professional?

And 33 years being dead??

benjiboy · Dec 9, 2014

E. von Hoegh said:
Not to mention the fact that he handed Schmeling (hitler's 'Aryan hope') his head. I've always felt bad for Max Schmeling.

Max Schmeling was the only man ever to defeat him he actually knocked out Louis in the 12th round at Madison Square Garden in 1936, but that was before Louis was World champion which the Nazi propaganda ministry highly publicised about their Arian racial superiority, the rematch was in1937 and Louis destroyed the German in the first round with devastating body blows and the referee stopped the fight Schmeling only having managed to throw two or three punches . Interestingly Schmelng wasn't a Nazi, and who years later after the war when Louis was dying and was broke paid all his hospital bills.

Tony-S · Dec 10, 2014

E. von Hoegh said:
That's interesting. Why??

The features that come with the cameras and the more accurate and reliable shutters that are usually stepless in AE and P modes.

I'd never buy a camera with an electronic shutter. Why? because the mechanical shutters can be repaired and maintained, at a certain point the electronic shutters will be beyond repair due to lack of replacement parts.

Meh. The tradeoffs are too great. I'm perfectly happy with my F-1N and its electronically-controlled hybrid shutter. I'm also glad my Bronica RF645 has 1/12-stop shutter speeds. Can't get that with a mechanical shutter.

It's possible, but considerably more involved, to duplicate (say) a release solenoid for an electronic shutter. It is not practical to duplicate the chips, flexible circuits, etc. for an electronic shutter - and many if not most of them will eventually fail.

I have three mechanical cameras in a box that don't fire properly (and one that does, an F-1n). I'm sure it's because their shutters are all gummed up from all the old grease on them. On the other hand, my Canon A-1 (bought new) and Nikon FE (gifted) from the 1970s still work great and give me reliable exposures with slide film every time.

Most good quality mechanical cameras will be repairable for many decades, if not a century or two.

Well, I don't know about you, but I don't plan to be around for a century or two.

flavio81 · Dec 10, 2014

Tony-S said:
The features that come with the cameras and the more accurate and reliable shutters that are usually stepless in AE and P modes.

You are correct, however:

1) While it's true that electronic shutters are more accurate, good mechanical shutters are more than good enough for all purposes.

2) Stepless AE is, to me, of little value, since this relies on incident (in-camera) metering, which in itself is NOT an accurate way of establishing exposure. Unless you bring a grey card with you, measure using the grey card and then press the AE-lock button and recompose the image. Which is very cumbersome.

PS: I also owned the A-1 and own the FE. Very nice cameras. But i prefer the Canon EF, Nikon F and F3 much more. Those last 3 have mechanical shutters.

lxdude · Dec 10, 2014

flavio81 said:
PS: I also owned the A-1 and own the FE. Very nice cameras. But i prefer the Canon EF, Nikon F and F3 much more. Those last 3 have mechanical shutters.

Uhhh, 'scuse me?

flavio81 · Dec 10, 2014

lxdude said:
Uhhh, 'scuse me?

LOL

Ooops... My bad.

The F has a mechanical shutter and the EF as well (from 1000 to 1/2 speeds are mechanical).

You got me with the F3. Perhaps i thought it was mechanical because of the looooong battery life !

E. von Hoegh · Dec 11, 2014

Tony-S said:
The features that come with the cameras and the more accurate and reliable shutters that are usually stepless in AE and P modes.

Meh. The tradeoffs are too great. I'm perfectly happy with my F-1N and its electronically-controlled hybrid shutter. I'm also glad my Bronica RF645 has 1/12-stop shutter speeds. Can't get that with a mechanical shutter.

I have three mechanical cameras in a box that don't fire properly (and one that does, an F-1n). I'm sure it's because their shutters are all gummed up from all the old grease on them. On the other hand, my Canon A-1 (bought new) and Nikon FE (gifted) from the 1970s still work great and give me reliable exposures with slide film every time.

Well, I don't know about you, but I don't plan to be around for a century or two.

You most certainly can. My Nikon F2A has stepless speeds above 1/60th.

Old grease on mechanical shutters? Electronic shutters are just as susceptible; they still have mechanical curtains, springs, and so on that have lubricants.

And whether you or I will be around for a "century or two" was not my point, that the cameras can survive that long was my point.

Tony-S · Dec 11, 2014

E. von Hoegh said:
You most certainly can. My Nikon F2A has stepless speeds above 1/60th.

The F2A DP-11 finder requires a battery, right? Without it, no stepless shutter speeds?

Old grease on mechanical shutters? Electronic shutters are just as susceptible; they still have mechanical curtains, springs, and so on that have lubricants.

But not nearly as much grease, so the electronic shutters are less likely to have such a problem. Mechanical shutters require a far more complex tensioning system (i.e., lubricated) than do quartz or lithium niobate-controlled shutters. Plus, because of this tensioning system, they require periodic calibration. Leica recommended 10 year intervals and those cameras didn't even have half-stop shutters, let alone steppless shutters. For all intents and purposes, there is no need for calibration with electronic shutters. When they fail, they usually fail completely.

And whether you or I will be around for a "century or two" was not my point, that the cameras can survive that long was my point.

Like I said. Meh. I'm happy you're happy with mechanical shutters. They just aren't my preferred choice.

You'd think that if mechanical shutters had been so awesome that none of the camera manufacturers would have switched to electronic shutters. But, of course, that didn't happen.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 11, 2014

Tony-S said:
The F2A DP-11 finder requires a battery, right? Without it, no stepless shutter speeds?

But not nearly as much grease, so the electronic shutters are less likely to have such a problem. Mechanical shutters require a far more complex tensioning system (i.e., lubricated) than do quartz or lithium niobate-controlled shutters. Plus, because of this tensioning system, they require periodic calibration. Leica recommended 10 year intervals and those cameras didn't even have half-stop shutters, let alone steppless shutters. For all intents and purposes, there is no need for calibration with electronic shutters. When they fail, they usually fail completely.

Like I said. Meh. I'm happy you're happy with mechanical shutters. They just aren't my preferred choice.

You'd think that if mechanical shutters had been so awesome that none of the camera manufacturers would have switched to electronic shutters. But, of course, that didn't happen.

You can leave the finder off the body and you'll still have stepless shutter speeds.

Leicaflex SLs had stepless shutter speeds too.
As for electronic shutters failing in "irreparable mode", that's just my point. I like simple things which work well and can be maintained, not gadgets that are disposable. YMMV.

As for grease, that's used on mechanisms other than shutters... I take it you have zero experience working on such mechanisms.

Tony-S · Dec 11, 2014

E. von Hoegh said:
You can leave the finder off the body and you'll still have stepless shutter speeds.

Leicaflex SLs had stepless shutter speeds too.

Well, there you go.

As for electronic shutters failing in "irreparable mode", that's just my point. I like simple things which work well and can be maintained, not gadgets that are disposable. YMMV.

Speaking of mileage, I've never had an electronic camera fail on me and I have several: Canon A-1, AL-1, T60, F-1N, Nikon FE, Bronica GS-1, Bronica RF645. On the other had, I have a failed Pentax Spotmatic F, Fujica ST601 and a Nikon FM. So, I suppose since those are older cameras that's probably part of it. But as I said before, the trade-offs of mechanical shuttered cameras are too great for what I want my cameras to do.

As for grease, that's used on mechanisms other than shutters...

But again, there's a lot less lubricant in electronic cameras than in mechanical cameras.

lxdude · Dec 11, 2014

Tony-S said:
The F2A DP-11 finder requires a battery, right? Without it, no stepless shutter speeds?

The DP-11 is not an AE finder- no F2 finder regulates shutter speeds. There were attachments (DS-1, DS-2, DS-12), compatible with certain Photomic finders, that moved the aperture ring for AE.
The stepless shutter speeds are mechanical-- an in-between setting means an between speed. The F2's manual says the stepless speeds go down to 1/60th, but many F2 owners say it's actually across the full range, to 1 second, and then there's the self timer regulated speeds to 10 seconds.
I used to own F2's, but never tried in-between settings, because of what the manual said. If I ever get one again, I'm going to try it at slower speeds and see for myself.

lxdude · Dec 11, 2014

Tony-S said:
Mechanical shutters require a far more complex tensioning system (i.e., lubricated) than do quartz or lithium niobate-controlled shutters. Plus, because of this tensioning system, they require periodic calibration.

Tensioning system? I can understand timing systems, but as far as I know, they're all tensioned mechanically- i.e. springs.

flavio81 · Dec 11, 2014

Tony-S said:
Mechanical shutters require a far more complex tensioning system (i.e., lubricated) than do quartz or lithium niobate-controlled shutters. Plus, because of this tensioning system, they require periodic calibration. Leica recommended 10 year intervals and those cameras didn't even have half-stop shutters, let alone steppless shutters. For all intents and purposes, there is no need for calibration with electronic shutters.

Sorry but you're incorrect on some accounts.

1 - An vertical or horizontal electronic shutter is mostly identical to the mechanical shutter. The only difference is that the electronic one uses a solenoid to control the closure of the 2nd curtain, while the mechanical one readjusts the 2nd curtain distance (for higher speeds) or uses clockwork to fire the 2nd curtain (for lower speeds).

2 - Both need calibration of the curtains tension or else top speed will be wrong and/or problems of curtain bounce and/or incorrect exposure will arise.

3 - Leicaflex cameras had stepless shutter speeds.

miha · Dec 11, 2014

flavio81 said:
3 - Leicaflex cameras had stepless shutter speeds.

Almost. (not between 1/4s and 1/8s and between 1/30s and 1/60sec; I have one)

flavio81 · Dec 11, 2014

Actually, on many many horizontal-shutter mechanical cameras, the speeds from about 1/60 to top speed (say, 1/1000) are regulated by changing the "gap" between the 1st curtain and the 2nd curtain. The shutter speed dial modifies this gap. This means that speeds are effectively 'stepless' in that range, even if the manual doesn't say nothing.

This is true even in some vertical-shutter mechanical cameras like the Nikkormat FT2 (and similar). The last 3 or 4 top speeds are stepless.

miha · Dec 11, 2014

flavio81 said:
Actually, on many many horizontal-shutter mechanical cameras, the speeds from about 1/60 to top speed (say, 1/1000) are regulated by changing the "gap" between the 1st curtain and the 2nd curtain. The shutter speed dial modifies this gap. This means that speeds are effectively 'stepless' in that range, even if the manual doesn't say nothing.

This is true even in some vertical-shutter mechanical cameras like the Nikkormat FT2 (and similar). The last 3 or 4 top speeds are stepless.

Not with the Leicaflex - do you have one? The mechanism has three speeds: slow, medium and fast, and it shifts among the three modes at (or between) the speeds mentioned in my above post. The shutter speeds are not continuously variable at those settings.

flavio81 · Dec 11, 2014

miha said:
Not with the Leicaflex - do you have one? The mechanism has three speeds: slow, medium and fast, and it shifts among the three modes at (or between) the speeds mentioned in my above post. The shutter speeds are not continuously variable at those settings.

I was just mentioning that in some cameras the fastest speeds are often stepless even if they are not advertised by the manual, by virtue of the curtain gap settings. This mode of operation does not require the clockwork.

The "switching" you mention regarding the Leicaflex happens in other cameras as well such as the Nikon F2. On the Nikkormat FT, again, i found that some clockwork ranges were stepless as well. In many shutter-control clockwork mechanisms for central shutters there is a "switching of modes" as well; i've seen this in the Prontor, Epsilon and (i think) one Compur.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 11, 2014

lxdude said:
Tensioning system? I can understand timing systems, but as far as I know, they're all tensioned mechanically- i.e. springs.

That's correct. Need lube too.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 11, 2014

Tony-S said:
Well, there you go.

Speaking of mileage, I've never had an electronic camera fail on me and I have several: Canon A-1, AL-1, T60, F-1N, Nikon FE, Bronica GS-1, Bronica RF645. On the other had, I have a failed Pentax Spotmatic F, Fujica ST601 and a Nikon FM. So, I suppose since those are older cameras that's probably part of it. But as I said before, the trade-offs of mechanical shuttered cameras are too great for what I want my cameras to do.

But again, there's a lot less lubricant in electronic cameras than in mechanical cameras.

Well I have. But I've never had a mechanical camera fail, ever. I have about 20 mechanical cameras, from about 1916 to 1975 - all of which function properly. I have lenses in shutters well over 100 years old, all of which function properly. I had an OM-4 which ate batteries - without power it was a $400 paperweight.

All in all, the amount of lube in an "electronic" camera is about the same as that in say a Nikon F. It's just newer lube in a newer camera.

flavio81 · Dec 11, 2014

E. von Hoegh said:
Well I have. But I've never had a mechanical camera fail, ever. I have about 20 mechanical cameras, from about 1916 to 1975 - all of which function properly.

I agree with both views. A reliable camera is a reliable camera, i'd say. The F is a reliable mechanical camera. The FE2 is a reliable electronic camera.

benjiboy · Dec 12, 2014

They are both first class reliable professional cameras, built to the highest standards, I own or have owned both of them and they are two of the best 35mm S.L.R' s ever made.

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Canon F1n vs. Nikon F2? Really, is one better than the other?

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