Canon F1N: Dropping Frames

FoidPoosening · Jan 30, 2016

Hi Apug!

I picked up a Canon F1N with AE finder and AE power winder a few months ago, and I absolutely love it (for both AE and manual). That being said, I've noticed the camera sometimes "drops frames" from my rolls of film, IE sporadically a frame will be completely blank when I get it back from development--when I definitely know I took a photo on that frame.

I confess, I often finish one roll of film over a few outings (sometimes days, sometimes weeks) due to my schedule and the film sits in my camera for a while. Could this be the explanation? I only ask because I do the same thing my grandfather's AE1 Program and I've never had this problem with that camera in similar situations.

Thanks in advance everyone

AgX · Jan 30, 2016

No, it cannot be the film.

It cannot be the film-transport advancing one frame too much.

What remains?

Mirror not opening?
You would see that in the finder.

Shutter not working at all.
Shutter working at too narrow slit.

Aperture stopped down too much.

A case for the professional repairer.

Sirius Glass · Jan 30, 2016

It sounds like the camera in general and the shutter specifically need a CLA done by a camera repair man.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 30, 2016

Presuming it's not just operator error, like forgetting to set the exposure before making the photo, then I agree, it makes sense to send the camera for a CLA and checked for a shutter issue.

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gone · Jan 30, 2016

Before you send it out, confirm the problem. Simply open the back and fire the shutter while looking at the shutter w/ the camera aimed at a light source. Fire it at different shutter speeds, and closely observe what is happening. That will tell you exactly what the problem is.

That camera has a cloth horizontal running shutter that is mechanical, BUT if you are using it w/ the AE finder and the camera set to AE priority, it is electronically controlled. It's a hybrid system, which is different that the earlier and simpler F1 I owned (great camera, but heavy as lead and quite large). This is where I suspect the problem is, as a mechanical shutter will usually ("usually" being the key word here) not do this, it will malfunction by giving exposures that are dark on one side of the image due to shutter capping. That's not your problem, but if it happens later, it's a DIY fix that I posted here on APUG in the camera repair section a good while back on a Canon FT QL, which has a similar shutter, but w/o the electronic control. Put fresh batteries in your camera to be sure, and make sure the contacts are clean and the spring is "springy" to assure good battery contact too. That spring tends to get smooshed over time.

There's a nice F1 for sale here in the classified w/ a lens for a very reasonable price if you want a spare. The older F1's are real rugged workhorses, and there's not much electronically to go wrong in them.

benjiboy · Jan 30, 2016

All Canon F1's have Titanium shutters not cloth, I had this problem with with one of my F1N's about twelve years ago one of the shutter speeds wasn't working, I had the shutter serviced by a pro and have had no problems since. http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/canonf1n/shutter/index.htm

FoidPoosening · Jan 30, 2016

momus said:
Before you send it out, confirm the problem. Simply open the back and fire the shutter while looking at the shutter w/ the camera aimed at a light source. Fire it at different shutter speeds, and closely observe what is happening. That will tell you exactly what the problem is.

I will have to try this. I bought it from KEH in working condition as was told there was nothing wrong with it. If it does in fact turn out to be a shutter problem, who would be able to investigate/repair this? I live in NYC if that helps.

Sirius Glass · Jan 30, 2016

FoidPoosening said:
I will have to try this. I bought it from KEH in working condition as was told there was nothing wrong with it. If it does in fact turn out to be a shutter problem, who would be able to investigate/repair this? I live in NYC if that helps.

If you purchased it within 60 days, you can return it KEH for a CLA.

FoidPoosening · Jan 30, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
If you purchased it within 60 days, you can return it KEH for a CLA.

Bought it at the beginning of Nov/end of Oct, so definitely no luck with that. Next step?

Sirius Glass · Jan 30, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
If you purchased it within 60 days, you can return it KEH for a CLA.

FoidPoosening said:
Bought it at the beginning of Nov/end of Oct, so definitely no luck with that. Next step?

Call them and ask. There is a 6 month warranty, so they may be able to help you.

frobozz · Jan 31, 2016

Do you shoot in shutter-speed-priority mode? (Aperture ring set to "A", you pick the shutter speed). If so, that function absolutely depends on the motor for something (I assume some sort of power to move the aperture setting during exposure); it's a listed requirement that you have a motor attached to use shutter-speed-priority mode. I have had a motor in the past that fully functioned in all ways EXCEPT this one, and the only way I discovered it was shooting in this mode in low light, where the lens should have been opening up wide and it wasn't. Confirmed it with the test listed above, viewing through the shutter and lens with the back open.

My motor was doing this permanently, but perhaps yours is doing it intermittently. Or your blank frames were only in the cases where the aperture needed to be wide open, but the ones where it would have been stopped down pretty far came out OK, because in this error condition, the lens is staying at minimum aperture during the exposure.

Just an idea...

Duncan

FoidPoosening · Jan 31, 2016

frobozz said:
Do you shoot in shutter-speed-priority mode? (Aperture ring set to "A", you pick the shutter speed). If so, that function absolutely depends on the motor for something (I assume some sort of power to move the aperture setting during exposure); it's a listed requirement that you have a motor attached to use shutter-speed-priority mode. I have had a motor in the past that fully functioned in all ways EXCEPT this one, and the only way I discovered it was shooting in this mode in low light, where the lens should have been opening up wide and it wasn't. Confirmed it with the test listed above, viewing through the shutter and lens with the back open.

My motor was doing this permanently, but perhaps yours is doing it intermittently. Or your blank frames were only in the cases where the aperture needed to be wide open, but the ones where it would have been stopped down pretty far came out OK, because in this error condition, the lens is staying at minimum aperture during the exposure.

Just an idea...

Duncan

I usually actually shoot in aperture priority mode (Camera set to A, I select aperture on lens and it uses appropriate shutter speed). With that in mind, is what you said still possible to be potentially causing the issue or no dice?

Thanks!

darinwc · Feb 1, 2016

When there is a battery in the camera, the shutter release switches to a completely electronic system. Set the camera to 1/90 and with the back open, try the shutter both with and without the battery. About 10 frames each. Then switch to a slow speed.. 1/4 so you can tell that the slow speeds are working.

My guess is that there is an electronic problem and the faster speeds without the battery will work fine.

frobozz · Feb 2, 2016

FoidPoosening said:
I usually actually shoot in aperture priority mode (Camera set to A, I select aperture on lens and it uses appropriate shutter speed). With that in mind, is what you said still possible to be potentially causing the issue or no dice?

Thanks!

Nope, not an issue at all in aperture priority mode!

Duncan

Sirius Glass · Feb 2, 2016

Duncan, Welcome to APUG

frobozz · Feb 2, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
Duncan, Welcome to APUG

Sheesh, it took you 6 years ;-)

Duncan

Sirius Glass · Feb 2, 2016

Better late than never.

flavio81 · Feb 2, 2016

frobozz said:
Do you shoot in shutter-speed-priority mode? (Aperture ring set to "A", you pick the shutter speed). If so, that function absolutely depends on the motor for something (I assume some sort of power to move the aperture setting during exposure); it's a listed requirement that you have a motor attached to use shutter-speed-priority mode. I have had a motor in the past that fully functioned in all ways EXCEPT this one, and the only way I discovered it was shooting in this mode in low light, where the lens should have been opening up wide and it wasn't. Confirmed it with the test listed above, viewing through the shutter and lens with the back open.

This. On shutter priority mode, the motor operates the aperture. I don't know how it's implemented but the "failure mode" is 99% most likely having the aperture closed to the minimum (f22 - f32), because the FD lenses' natural tendency is to close the aperture. In theory the AE operation would be as follows:
1. let the aperture control lever drop so the diaphragm starts closing
2. once (the diaphragm's instantaneous position is equal to the desired f-stop), BRAKE the aperture control lever "drop" so it stops closing (this would be done by the motor)
3. fire the shutter

So if (2) is failing, then you'll have exposures with the diaphragm almost closed. Blank frames most likely.

The above (1,2,3) steps are what the Canon A-1 does, which does not require a motor.

John Koehrer · Feb 2, 2016

The aperture isn't controlled by a motor but with magnets. The aperture control lever is the brake. It stops and so does the aperture linkage.

flavio81 · Feb 4, 2016

John Koehrer said:
The aperture isn't controlled by a motor but with magnets. The aperture control lever is the brake. It stops and so does the aperture linkage.

What i meant is that the mechanism to stop the aperture lever is inside the F-1 "motor" accessory.

Canon F1N: Dropping Frames

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