Canon F1 New shutter/meter issues

So I recently sold my K1000 to buy an New F1.. crazy how that's possible, but oh well.

Anyway, I've shot 3 rolls so far and on each roll, there has been an average of 3 blank frames, and on one roll the frames very overexposed, and the edges of the frame were blurred, as if the light has 'spilled' over the edges. I've attached a photo below. It's worth noting that I could quite clearly hear that something was wrong whilst shooting at the time it happened. It sounded like a much slower shutter speed than I selected, but I'm unsure why the edges of the frame are all blurred? It happened whilst in aperture priority mode.

Also, the meter reading is consistently out by 2 stops (its over-exposing). I do have an AD screen fitted with the average pattern reading, but even when pointed at a completely white wall, it still reads over. I shot mostly with a hand held meter because of this.

If anyone has any ideas or experience, please do share! Would love to get these issued ironed out, as I do love this camera.

Thanks!

Ben Miles said:

nd on one roll the frames very overexposed, and the edges of the frame were blurred, as if the light has 'spilled' over the edges.

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Yes, when film is heavily over exposed the light will spill/fog/pipe onto the surrounding film area. I would be not be surprised if it went into the sprocket area also.
Check the shutter speeds in manual mode, if the error continues it the camera's electronics. The camera uses a electronic timing circuit. I don't know if its in the main processor chip or a separate chip.
I would consider returning the camera and looking for another.

shutterfinger said:

Yes, when film is heavily over exposed the light will spill/fog/pipe onto the surrounding film area. I would be not be surprised if it went into the sprocket area also.
Check the shutter speeds in manual mode, if the error continues it the camera's electronics. The camera uses a electronic timing circuit. I don't know if its in the main processor chip or a separate chip.
I would consider returning the camera and looking for another.

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Manual mode works fine, it appears to be just in aperture priority. I've just fired off the shutter for 5 minutes straight, and found that in manual mode all is well, but in aperture priority, instead of firing the indicated shutter speed, it fires as bulb?! As long as i keep the shutter down, it stays open. Explains the heavy over exposure. I wonder what could be causing this?

And unfortunately I've run out of time to return it. I bought it on ebay as working, but over a month ago now. Rookie error.

Ben Miles said:

Also, the meter reading is consistently out by 2 stops (its over-exposing). I do have an AD screen fitted with the average pattern reading, but even when pointed at a completely white wall, it still reads over. I shot mostly with a hand held meter because of this.

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Does it also read over in manual mode? If true, then the meter needs recalibration. There should be internal pots intended for technicians to recalibrate it, inside the camera.

If this problem is only on AUTO mode, it still could be corrected with recalibration.

The Canon New F-1 deserves proper technical service.

Ben Miles said:

So I recently sold my K1000 to buy an New F1.. crazy how that's possible, but oh well.

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Crazy? Sounds logical. You sold a K1000 to get a New F-1? I sold my Nikon F3 and my original, mint, made-in-germany Rollei 35 to buy a special edition of the F-1N.

The K1000 is a good camera, but not the best Pentax out there. Even the KX, of the same year and the same line, is a better camera. The MX a much better camera.

While, for me, the Canon New F-1 is the best 35mm camera i've used -- and i've used many different ones*. I can't think of any pro manual focus 35mm camera that could top it. Perhaps the Pentax LX, but i haven't tried one, plus it has a not-so-good reliability record. Perhaps there is a Minolta that tops it (XE-5 maybe?), but the Canon FD lens line is more interesting.

I've owned the K1000, MX, New F-1, so I speak from personal experience here.

So I advise you to take that camera to a tech, because the problem isn't big at all. Even without a meter the F-1N is an excellent camera: the viewfinder quality is perhaps the best i've ever seen, the shutter and mirror action is very smooth, and it's tough as it can get. My only complaint is that the ergonomics aren't so good. Pentax cameras, in general, have better ergonomics.

If you are tempted to sell the F-1 then consider staying with Pentax. I think the MX with some K-series lenses would be a good alternative to the F-1 with FD lenses. I'm considering buying a second MX right now! Pentax lenses, in particular the 70's Takumars and K or A-series bayonet lenses, are second to none, and I must admit this, even being such a Canon fanboy.

* Pentax SP, SPII, K1000, MX, P30, Nikon F, F2, F3, FT, FT2, EL, EL2, FE, FE2, FM, Canon FX, FT, FTb, AE1, A1, F-1, New F-1, EOS5, Olympus OM-1, OM-2, Leicaflex, Yashica FR-1.

flavio81 said:

Does it also read over in manual mode? If true, then the meter needs recalibration. There should be internal pots intended for technicians to recalibrate it, inside the camera.

If this problem is only on AUTO mode, it still could be corrected with recalibration.

The Canon New F-1 deserves proper technical service.



Crazy? Sounds logical. You sold a K1000 to get a New F-1? I sold my Nikon F3 and my original, mint, made-in-germany Rollei 35 to buy a special edition of the F-1N.

The K1000 is a good camera, but not the best Pentax out there. Even the KX, of the same year and the same line, is a better camera. The MX a much better camera.

While, for me, the Canon New F-1 is the best 35mm camera i've used -- and i've used many different ones*. I can't think of any pro manual focus 35mm camera that could top it. Perhaps the Pentax LX, but i haven't tried one, plus it has a not-so-good reliability record. Perhaps there is a Minolta that tops it (XE-5 maybe?), but the Canon FD lens line is more interesting.

I've owned the K1000, MX, New F-1, so I speak from personal experience here.

So I advise you to take that camera to a tech, because the problem isn't big at all. Even without a meter the F-1N is an excellent camera: the viewfinder quality is perhaps the best i've ever seen, the shutter and mirror action is very smooth, and it's tough as it can get. My only complaint is that the ergonomics aren't so good. Pentax cameras, in general, have better ergonomics.

If you are tempted to sell the F-1 then consider staying with Pentax. I think the MX with some K-series lenses would be a good alternative to the F-1 with FD lenses. I'm considering buying a second MX right now! Pentax lenses, in particular the 70's Takumars and K or A-series bayonet lenses, are second to none, and I must admit this, even being such a Canon fanboy.

* Pentax SP, SPII, K1000, MX, P30, Nikon F, F2, F3, FT, FT2, EL, EL2, FE, FE2, FM, Canon FX, FT, FTb, AE1, A1, F-1, New F-1, EOS5, Olympus OM-1, OM-2, Leicaflex, Yashica FR-1.

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Thanks for your response,
With regards to selling my K1000, I meant it's crazy that it was worth enough to use the money from the sale to buy an F1 new! In great condition as well (bar the issues). Must be a bit of a cult camera, the k1000. Whilst it was a fantastic camera, it just didn't have the features that I like using. Plus, I have a decent fd lens kit already, and various fd bodies.

I'm glad you hold the F1 new in such high esteem, I was beginning to have serious doubts about keeping it but i think I'll just send it off for a good cla and repair. It's by far the best camera I've used and would be great shame to get rid. And funnily enough, the ergonomics suit me well; it fits perfectly in my big hands.

Anyway, thanks for your advice! Much appreciated.

Ben Miles said:

Thanks for your response,
With regards to selling my K1000, I meant it's crazy that it was worth enough to use the money from the sale to buy an F1 new! In great condition as well (bar the issues). Must be a bit of a cult camera, the k1000. Whilst it was a fantastic camera

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Amazing. Totally cult-status. I just sold an almost mint K-1000 for little price just one month ago, so LOL. It is always touted as a "K-mount spotmatic", but the Spotmatic is better built IMO. I sold my K1000 because i liked my lowly Pentax P30 cameras better!

Ben Miles said:

I'm glad you hold the F1 new in such high esteem, I was beginning to have serious doubts about keeping it but i think I'll just send it off for a good cla and repair. It's by far the best camera I've used and would be great shame to get rid. And funnily enough, the ergonomics suit me well; it fits perfectly in my big hands.

Anyway, thanks for your advice! Much appreciated.

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You know, i agree with the bold part. Strange, isn't it? XD

You will see that on this forum ("APUG" for the faithful) there are many fans of the New F-1 and the original F-1. See posts by Cooltouch or Benjiboy, for example.

I think there is no finest FD-mount camera available. Not even the T90. It is truly a masterpiece of camera, and we need to thanks Nikon for this, because, to remember history:

Nikon made the F, a masterpiece camera.

Canon worked for at least 6 years straight and a huge invesment of resources to topple it with the F-1. They had to completely revise their processes and tolerances to make the F-1; Nikon almost simultaneously released another masterpiece camera, the F2.

Then in the late 70s these companies had two superb machines, the F-1 and the F2, plus the Minolta XK. Professional (or almost-pro) 35mm cameras were practically on the cusp of perfection. The next pro-caliber camera from a major manufacturer had to be amazing.

Nikon came out with the F3 and Canon with the New F-1. Pentax with the LX. Any of these ones simply had to be an amazing camera, because it had to improve on the F2, F-1 and XK.

It's also important to note that Canon got really serious with lens design starting at least in 1965 where they introduced serious pro-quality lenses like the FL 19/3.5R and the FL 85-300/5. In 1968 they made a massive leap, introducing many high-performance lenses that went unchanged into FD mount, for example the FL 50/1.4II and FL 55/1.2. In 1969 they brought out the fluorite lenses. In 1971 they brought out the 55/1.2 aspheric and then patented methods for automatic production of aspheric surfaces, something that no other manufacturer had at that point in time.

They were the first to bring out tilt-shift lenses, the first to bring out a 2-group zoom, etc.

This means that by 1981 (F-1N date) they were an optical powerhouse. Lenses like the 85/1.2L are as good as anything from Nikon, Zeiss, Leitz, Pentax, etc.

Sadly, and this you'll realize soon, sometimes the pursuit of sharpness was in expense of good bokeh/rendering, and this is sometimes seen in some FD lenses. Fortunately most of the FD telephotos are great in bokeh/rendering, like the 135/2.5, 135/2.8, 200/2.8, all 100s, and all 85s.

A tip: The 100mm focal length was the pride of Canon. Any Canon 100mm focal length, even rangefinder, or R, or FL-mount, will not disappoint.

Another tip: Don't overlook the lowly 35/3.5 FD S.C. It is optically great.

Some great information there, thanks! I will check out the 100mm and 35mm lenses as well. I've been wanting to try some new focal lengths, and they sound great.

Thanks for all your advice!

Ok let's make sure you are doing things right..

You mentioned "aperture priority" and "setting the shutter"

In aperture priority mode, you should be setting the aperture, and the shutter should be set to "A"

Do NOT set the lens to "A".

What Darin wrote. Make sure your problem isn't user error first. If the problem persists, there are still folks who service Canon FD.

Ken Oikawa is probably the most well known. He is a retired Canon service tech, his prices are very reasonable, and he offers a very fast turnaround time. He doesn't do email, though. You have to call him. Here's his contact info, which I believe is still current:

28288 West Worcester Road
Sun City, CA 92586
Phone: (951) 246-9136

There are others who will do Canon FD repair. Googling reveals several. I have a personal favorite, which just so happens to be local to me: Professional Camera Repair. Just about everything I mentioned about Ken is true for these guys too. They're knowledgeable, fast, and reasonably priced:

http://professionalcamerarepair.com/

I'm not affiliated with the above in any way -- just a satisfied customer.

Definitely not user error, just my dodgy explanation.

I've found a couple of repairers that seem trustworthy here in Aus, but I've also heard Ken Oikawa is the best around. Might be worth sending it overseas to get a proper job done?

Anyway, thanks for your advice on repairers. Looks like I've got some calls to make

Ben Miles said:

Might be worth sending it overseas to get a proper job done?

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This was a very expensive pro camera; it's better to send it to the best guy you can get.

Did you test shooting below 1/125s without AP? Those are electronically controlled.

flavio81 said:

This was a very expensive pro camera; it's better to send it to the best guy you can get.

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They were "very expensive" in the days when they were current although I worked in a pro camera dealers store, I couldn't afford one even with my staff discount because as far as I remember the F1-N AE body with the FD 50mm f1.4 was about £1,000 which in the early 1980s was great deal of money.

Two questions Ben, firstly you don't say if the camera has got the AE prism finder fitted not the standard eye level one (which is not capable of automatic exposure) and if so is the cameras shutter speed dial been set to "A" and is the lens off the A position. and if the shutter speed scale is visible at the bottom of the viewfinder?
In addition, I suggest if you definitely have the AE finder on the camera that you remove it and re-fit it then rotate the shutter speed dial setting the slowest and fastest shutter speeds to ensure the finder is correctly coupled to the camera body.
I could be wrong, but It sounds very much to me like you are trying to get aperture priority AE exposures with the standard eye level prism finder. that only manual exposures are available on. I suggest you read and inwardly digest the instruction manual that's available online http://www.butkus.org/chinon/canon/canon_new_f-1/canon_new_f-1.htm before you send it for repair.

As far as I know, aperture priority AE works even with the plain finder on.

flavio81 said:

As far as I know, aperture priority AE works even with the plain finder on.

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Not according to page 30 of the instruction manual Flavio, it says to get AE exposure you need the AE finder. and you wouldn't get the shutter speed scale at the bottom of the viewfinder.

It is indeed possible to achieve AE exposure with the standard finder. The drawback is, when the shutter speed dial is se to "A", a blind covers the meter readout scale on the right side (and of course, there's no scale across the bottom), so you're "flying blind" essentially, but it doesn't really matter since you're controlling exposure with the aperture being selected anyway. You just won't know what shutter speed is being selected.

Don't take my word for it -- read up on this point with a bit of googling if you doubt me.

Bit of an update;
Ignore what I said about it only happening on AE mode (yes, I have the ae finder) it happens on manual mode as well now. Must've just been a coincidence that I only noticed it whilst in ae mode.

So I noticed that it was actually the MIRROR that has been causing this! Can't believe I didn't spot it before.. Very similar to this but not quite as slow; also explains why the issue didn't show itself whilst holding the camera in portrait orientation, as the mirror didn't have to drag itself up.

Anyway, after some digging I found something on a forum suggesting that I check under the bottom plate for a certain lever that rubs on the plate if has been dented at all. Well, my plate appears to be dead straight to my eye, but the lever is definitely rubbing and since taking it off it's worked absolutely fine. So odd!!

I've found an f1 new expert in Aus who I was about to send it off to, so I'll have to update him and see what he says. Still needs a cla and the meter needs adjusting.

flavio81- I took your advice and picked up a mint (this thing hasn't got a scratch) canon 35mm f3.5 for a brilliant price after my 28mm f2.8 aperture blades kept getting stuck. Off on a road trip up the coast next week, so a perfect time to test it out!

Good news then:

1. It is a simpler mechanical problem, no doubt to be fixex after cleaning and lubricating the mechanism.

2. Your F-1 currently has the lowest mirror shock of any SLR camera

Ben Miles said:

flavio81- I took your advice and picked up a mint (this thing hasn't got a scratch) canon 35mm f3.5 for a brilliant price after my 28mm f2.8 aperture blades kept getting stuck. Off on a road trip up the coast next week, so a perfect time to test it out!

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Mint? Wow, you're a lucky guy!

Here's what I think of the 35/3.5: It is bigger than other 35/3.5, but that is the only downside. It has almost no distortion, and is sharp even at f3.5. I have some slides made with it on a trip and sharpness is amazing, plus the fact that it's a 35mm with low distortion makes pictures look very natural.

A very good lens, mine was battered so I finally gave it away to a cousin, and will get a mint one as soon as it crosses my path.