Canon Elan II meter calibration?

BHuij

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I have an Canon Elan II that I've been shooting for a couple of years; it's in great condition. It never occurred to me to check the meter, but I recently tried some printing from it and found the negatives were lacking shadow detail where I expected to have plenty.

I compared it against my trusty Minolta Spotmeter F (which I used for years with any camera that didn't have its own meter, especially my 4x5). Also compared the Elan II to my Reveni Labs spot meter (which I have used for all of my zone system film speed/development calibrations). I have already established that my Reveni meter and my Minolta meter are within less than 1/3 of a stop of each other, and once again confirmed that when I ran these tests.

For every lighting scenario where I checked (indoor fluorescent, indoor LED, outdoor overcast), I found that the Elan II was reading consistently about a stop brighter than the Minolta or the Reveni. For example, a blank white wall in my office under warm LED light gave a Zone V exposure of f/4, 1/15s, EI 250 with my spot meters, but the Elan II wanted f/4, 1/30s, EI 250. Minolta and Reveni were both given freshly charged batteries immediately prior to the test. That more or less checks out with my thinner-than-expected negatives in the darkroom. I had some pretty deep shadows that I would have metered for Zone III, and they were missing a lot of texture... probably because they were actually exposed at Zone II.

Is there any way to calibrate the meter on the Elan II? I didn't see anything in the manual, and some quick Googling turned up nothing. If the meter can't be calibrated, is it safe to assume that the 1-stop offset is linear and I can just set the ISO on the camera 1 stop slower to compensate?
 

albada

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All I can think of is that the DX code on the film is overriding your speed setting. 400 vs 250 is about a stop.
Regarding 1-stop offset: I suggest metering in sun and shade, as well as indoors, to determine whether that 1-stop underexposure persists in that wide range of lighting conditions.
Good luck.
Mark
 
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BHuij

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Thanks for responding. I wish it was that - but I definitely have the film speed manually set to 250.

Tomorrow I'll check a few different lighting scenarios in hopes that I can verify the offset is consistent. If so I can just set +1 exposure compensation I suppose. It will annoy me, but at least the images will come out with shadow detail... haha.
 

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BHuij

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I appreciate your trying to help. But to be honest I’m not sure how you read about having two spot meters agreeing on a blank white wall, and the Elan being off by a stop, and concluded that the problem is I don’t know how to meter.
 

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BHuij said:
But to be honest I’m not sure how you read about having two spot meters agreeing on a blank white wall, and the Elan being off by a stop, and concluded that the problem is I don’t know how to meter.
Click to expand...

Perhaps because any information is missing in your post on how you're metering exactly. I never noted any gross inconsistencies between my several Canons and other meters or cameras and I don't think it's likely a Canon from that era somehow develops a gross meter error like you're describing. So the thought that somehow user behavior comes into play isn't that far-fetched.

BHuij said:
Is there any way to calibrate the meter on the Elan II?
Click to expand...

I don't think so, no.

BHuij said:
If the meter can't be calibrated, is it safe to assume that the 1-stop offset is linear and I can just set the ISO on the camera 1 stop slower to compensate?
Click to expand...

I would say so, until real-world behavior and more testing shows otherwise. But as said, I'm quite surprised at your findings of such a big meter inaccuracy on this type of camera. It's really odd.
 

MattKing

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Do you have more than one lens?
I ask, in case the problem originates in the lens mount - particularly the electro-optical connection that communicates aperture information from lens to camera.
What metering mode are you using? Is the problem limited to just one?
 

koraks

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MattKing said:
I ask, in case the problem originates in the lens mount - particularly the electro-optical connection that communicates aperture information from lens to camera.
Click to expand...

I don't think the EF mount works that way. In the EOS/EF system, the camera dictates the aperture to the lens; the lens does not report an aperture setting back because it has none. The way the EF protocol manages the aperture is by the camera commanding the lens to run the aperture motor for a set duration (a number of microseconds) and this will close the aperture to the desired value. Hence, the only entity that 'knows' the aperture setting is the camera itself. Since all metering is done with the lens wide open, there's no chance of the wrong aperture being reported to the camera.
It's also not possible that the lens information (maximum aperture) is reported wrong since this would mean all communication through the EF mount would be faulty, and this would result in a non-functioning system altogether and most likely the camera locking up or giving an ERR99.
Keep in mind the EF mount has no contacts dedicated to just the aperture; it's basically just an SPI bus, so any problem on that bus would result in malfunction of all lens functions including aperture control, autofocus, lens information reporting, IS, etc.
I happen to know this because I recently read up on how the EF mount works as I wanted to modify an old Sigma 24/2.8 to work with my newer EOS bodies (and, surprisingly, succeeded).
 

MattKing

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Most likely you are right. But I would still try another lens .
 
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BHuij

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Yeah, it doesn't cost me anything to try it with a different lens, I may as well. I was using my EF 50mm f/1.4 for the tests last night.

To describe my metering process, I located an evenly lit section of indoor wall. I took readings from several areas of the wall with the Reveni labs spotmeter and came back with not even 1/3 stop of deviation in exposure at any point on the wall, with every spot I metered giving an exposure of f/4, 1/15s when I had film speed set to 250 (which is my EI for HP5+). I repeated the exercise with my Minolta Spotmeter F and got identical results. Then I set my ISO to 250, my aperture to F4, and my shutter speed to 1/15s with the Elan II and pointed it at the same blank section of wall. I am using partial metering mode, as it's the closest I can get to spot metering. According to documentation, it meters only an area covering 9.5% of the viewfinder, centered around whichever autofocus point is selected. I use the center autofocus point for everything and that's the one I had selected. At the settings recommended by both spot meters, it indicated I was one full stop overexposed. When I compensated for that by changing the shutter speed to 1/30s, the meter indicated a dead center Zone V exposure.

I repeated the tests this morning out in the overcast light. First I used a section of my white front door, which is shaded. Elan II gave almost exactly 1 stop different exposure recommendation. Then I did it on a section of stucco on the side of my house that wasn't shaded, but it was an overcast day. Same result. Then I tested it on the gray cloudy sky. Same result.

Only thing I haven't tested yet is whether the one stop difference holds true even in daylight, but I so rarely shoot in daylight that I'm going to proceed with just downrating my film one stop when I shoot it through this camera.
 

wiltw

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I find nothing wrong with your meter comparison...all meters see the same target (featureless, evenly lit) ...neutralizing any difference in angle of view, metering zone biasing. I would come to same conclusion as you, in the results of comparing 3 meters.

One consideration, however...the standard for meter calibration lets the MANUFACTURER chose its K factor for reflected light meters...and that can result in differences between brands. The K factor would not account for 1EV difference, however.
"Two values for K are in common use: 12.5 (Canon, Nikon, and Sekonic[1]) and 14 (Minolta,[2] Kenko,[2] and Pentax); the difference between the two values is approximately 1/6 EV." Wikipedia​
​
I have Canon dSLR and a Minolta Spotmeter F and Minolta Autometer Vf, and the readings I get are 'the same', in spite of difference in chosen K constant, and in spite of the fact that the Autometer is can be reflected or incident meter.
 
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koraks

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wiltw said:
I find nothing wrong with your meter comparison
Click to expand...

Me neither, and thank you @BHuij for adding this information.

There appears to be something odd going on with that camera. Do you have any chance of comparing this against another Elan II? They're a pretty common type, so perhaps someone in your area also has one?
 
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BHuij

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I'm not aware of anyone else who has an Elan II (they are cheap, I think I paid $30 for mine a couple of years ago). But my sister in law has a Rebel G, maybe I can compare with hers.

Now it makes me curious about all my other 35mm cameras though. I have an AE-1, an AT-1, and an OM-G I should probably test haha.
 

awty

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I bought an EOS, but still saving up for a battery.
When calibrating I start with a 18% Gray card in bright EV 15 midday sunlight, that gets rid of variables...of course only works where you have good sunlight.
 

grat

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What's the exposure compensation set to (see pg. 68 of the manual)?

I would also check custom settings C03 and C08 to make sure the camera is behaving how you think it is.

Worst case, set the exposure compensation to +1 stop.
 
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BHuij

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Good things to check, thank you. As near as I can tell, this camera only has exposure compensation when it's not set to Manual on the mode dial, which happens to be the only mode I've ever shot in with this particular camera, at least so far. If I set it to Av, Tv, or P, I can set compensation, but with manual mode, the only compensation available is Flash Exposure Compensation, which is irrelevant for the kind of work I do (and also set to 0). My manual also has far fewer than 68 pages. Perhaps yours is smaller, the one I'm using is just a PDF online that I googled.

Custom function C03 (ISO manual or DX code) was set to use manual ISO speed. Custom function C08 (partial metering locked to center or following selected AF point) was set to lock on the center point. I often manual focus without thinking about AF points, and didn't see any reason to use other areas of the frame for metering, since I do that entirely separately from composing.

Like I said above, for critical work (like the inaugural roll of CMS 20 II I'm about to put through it), I'm just going to use my spotmeter. For everything else, I'll plan on setting the film speed to 1/2 of the value I actually want to expose it at.
 

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I think just checking the meter is only half of the equation. You also need to ck the shutter speeds, because if the meter is accurate but your speeds are off.......
 
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BHuij

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momus said:
I think just checking the meter is only half of the equation. You also need to ck the shutter speeds, because if the meter is accurate but your speeds are off.......
Click to expand...

You're not wrong, but given that:

a) The meter is off by enough to account for 100% of the shadow density problem I noticed in my negatives, and
b) The shutter is electronically controlled,

I think I'll run another roll through before I stress about shutter speed inaccuracy on this camera.
 

grat

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I was looking at https://www.butkus.org/chinon/canon/canon_eos_elan_ii_iie/canon_eos_elan_ii_iie.htm for the manual.

After some experimenting with my EOS 5, it appears compensation doesn't affect M, so you're correct there. I'd have to check, but I believe the DSLR's behave slightly differently, hence my uncertainty.

Gotta say, I prefer the spot metering on my EOS 5, but I generally use center-weighted.
 
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BHuij

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My dad had an EOS 5 (still does, actually, I think). Great camera. Just wish it had metering in the viewfinder and the mode selector dial wasn't so fragile. His is broken. You can still select what you want, but the dial spins loosely and doesn't correspond to the digital setting anymore.

At any rate, I'm going to externally meter my next roll through this, which is actually going to be my first ever roll of CMS 20 II. Because I like to live on the edge.
 

koraks

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The mode select dial on the eos5 is a drama. I fixed mine when I had that camera, but ultimately ditched the whole thing in favor of the eos30. No more spot metering, but otherwise I've always liked the 30 more. I think that's the elan II, isn't it?
 
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