Canon Demi EE17 shutter speed adjustment

Crysist

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My Canon Demi has a rather annoying, but not awful problem: the shutter speeds are slow. I measured them both with audio and my phone's 240fps and 960fps video modes and got results like these:

Set Speed (sec) Measured Speed (sec)
1/8 1/5
1/30 1/20
1/125 1/90
1/500 1/300

The speeds are, consistently across the range, about 2/3 of a stop slow. Now, I've been compensating with the ISO dial as my meter seems accurate when referenced to a metering app. So if I shoot ISO 200, I set 320; if I shoot ISO 50, I set it to 80, etc. It's two clicks above the actual film speed on the dial.

Now that's fine enough as a workaround, but I'm missing the slightly faster speeds for shooting in the daylight. And since I effectively can't use speeds faster than 200 without a bit of mental math. I recently shot some Ektachrome pushed to 800 by metering at "200" (ISO 320 to compensate for the slower shutter speeds...) and then setting the camera two total stops faster in shutter speed and/or aperture. Even with the increased contrast of pushing the film 3 stops, this approach gave accurate results. A few shots I made choosing a shutter speed or aperture one stop slower than the speed I "calculated" gave really blown out results.

I've seen many discussions of shutter speeds on LF lenses' leaf shutter to be opening them up and adjusting some "eccentric" screw/gear? And I've looked at a number of EE17 repairs that show the shutter in detail (Here's a couple: A, B) but I don't see this particular problem ever presented and resolved. Usually it's for a sluggish shutter that barely moves, which seems to require cleaning and re-oiling the gears. And thankfully, the shutter mechanism can be reached just by removing the front element and rings.

Is this kind of adjustment possible with the Demi? Do I need any special lubricants?

I do have some smaller problems, like the rewind claw thing that pokes the top of the film cannister is loose. Maybe the crank itself too? The lens focuses a bit sluggishly, like it's resisting more. The self-timer level is stuck. And pressing the shutter button feels not-smooth. Are these ones difficult to resolve?

Thank you!
 
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bernard_L

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Count your blessings:
  • The error is consistent across the various speeds, so can be compensated with the ISO setting
  • 2/3 EV is just the difference between box speed and Zone System speed, so your camera does ZS for you effortlessly
Plus, any repair contains a risk element. The small spring that jumps unexpectedly and is lost. The wrong lubricant, or too much that spreads onto the shutter blades. The crucial assembly detail that is not covered in the YT videos.

Enjoy your camera, take pictures.

How will that big spring ever go back into that small brass cylinder?? It did, actually, with some persuasion. (from an ongoing Contaflex overhaul).

 

xkaes

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Since many shutterbugs, like myself, usually use lower ISO setting for negative film anyway, I'd say you are all set -- and that has been mentioned already.

For slide film, I'd just double the film speed.

Another option -- if you want to use the actual ISO -- is to put an appropriate 34mm ND filter (0.6?) over the lens all the time. Sure, you won't be able to use 1/500, but how often is that needed?

K.I.S.S.
 
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Crysist

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If I may ask, what can I safely do? I don't want to let every issue go unaddressed, and I asked in this forum because I had an interest in doing it myself. That includes information about the differences between lubricants, etc.

And I don't mean to come off as rude, I recognize the EV adjustment would be the simplest option, I just wanted to explore otherwise. And learn anything I could from the more knowledgeable people around here.

perkeleellinen said:
I'm keen to know what Ektachrome looks like at 800.
Click to expand...

I haven't made color-accurate scans of them, I just got a scanner and have been trying to improve my color correction skills. To my eye the slides look surprisingly good, grainer but not terrible, and the colors are not bad, face tones, blues, reds, do not at all look garish or unnatural.

So, to cover both bases, as it gets the color better, here's some photos I took with my phone of a couple frames (I took this on a light pad set to "warm"):



A close-up taken with my phone through a 22x loupe, again, the colors with my phone look very close to how it looks in-person:



Here is a rather blue and murky crop of a scan I did, it shows detail a lot better:



bernard_L said:
Probably like grossly overdone Harry Gruyaert.

Care to elaborate on the relation of this to the OP and the responses so far?
Click to expand...

Um, I'm getting confused by your responses, did I do something wrong?

xkaes said:
Since many shutterbugs, like myself, usually use lower ISO setting for negative film anyway, I'd say you are all set -- and that has been mentioned already.

For slide film, I'd just double the film speed.
Click to expand...

Already on that for negatives, it gives nice results. I kinda want to put some CMS 20 through it now lol. I can use the filter factor adjustment to meter below ISO 25. On top of it effectively being 2/3 a stop slower already!

xkaes said:
Another option -- if you want to use the actual ISO -- is to put an appropriate 34mm ND filter (0.6?) over the lens all the time. Sure, you won't be able to use 1/500, but how often is that needed?
Click to expand...

That's true... I just felt like I wasn't getting that glorious max shutter speed, especially for the few times I shot sunsets or fast moving objects. Oh and it's not too easy to find 34mm filters. I found some site with a few but hadn't bought any yet. Also there's a few on ebay.

For example, consider this shot I took of a heron flying away:



I got lucky its wingbeats are slower, but I had a moment to switch to 1/125 and take it. With my camera that's 1/90. Not the biggest difference, but for faster moving stuff I gotta keep in mind it's almost a stop slower. And that makes the slower speeds even trickier to keep still for than they would be if they were accurate.
 

Andreas Thaler

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I don't want to interrupt you here without any qualifications, as I don't know anything about the subject.

But as long as you can fix something complex without trying to repair it, you should do it. If you intervene, things can go wrong and you'll end up worse off than before.

At least I wouldn't do that to a device that has value to me.
 

xkaes

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Andreas Thaler said:
If you intervene, things can go wrong and you'll end up worse off than before.
Click to expand...

But, you forget that this can be a learning experience. I know -- first-hand. I learned not to screw with things unless absolutely necessary -- that's in the "I've got nothing to loose" department. I try not to shop there anymore.
 

Andreas Thaler

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xkaes said:
But, you forget that this can be a learning experience. I know -- first-hand. I learned not to screw with things unless absolutely necessary -- that's in the "I've got nothing to loose" department. I try not to shop there anymore.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course, but I prefer learning from abandoned devices rather than those that I try to repair. Only if it's possible, of course.

But I'm already gone again …
 

koraks

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Crysist said:
Um, I'm getting confused by your responses, did I do something wrong?
Click to expand...

No, don't worry about it. People will likely be critical about how your pushed slides came out, but I take it that is not what you started this thread for, so try not to be distracted by that tangent. This is about your camera and the question whether or not, and if so, how to adjust it.

Btw, I do agree with @Andreas Thaler that the risk may not weigh up to the benefit of trying to fix this issues. Old mechanical shutters are often a little slow. If it gets out of hand, it may be a good idea to go in there and do some cleaning and (if appropriate) some re-lubrication. However, with the marginal deviations you're seeing on this particular shutter, I'd think twice before trying to fix it. Also speaking of first-hand experience; I've 'fixed' quite a few things that ended up as paperweights while they started out as reasonably functional things.
 
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Crysist

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xkaes said:
But, you forget that this can be a learning experience. I know -- first-hand. I learned not to screw with things unless absolutely necessary -- that's in the "I've got nothing to loose" department. I try not to shop there anymore.
Click to expand...
Andreas Thaler said:
Yes, of course, but I prefer learning from abandoned devices rather than those that I try to repair. Only if it's possible, of course.

But I'm already gone again …
Click to expand...
Ah, I see... I did do this once for something that was actually broken, a pre-war Zeiss Biogon and merely cleaned the lens elements. I figured since disassembling that wasn't too bad that this, with one element to remove going by the videos, would be accessible.

So, not touching the shutter, I would like to see what I can do for the other bits that are hopefully less risky. Any tips for securing the rewind crank? Anything I can do about the shutter button and timer lever without needing to disassemble the whole leatherette?

Right. It just seemed unwarranted.

Gotcha. I actually did the same "test" on my Super Ikonta and it was MORE inaccurate than the Canon! A bit over a stop slow at some speeds, and I seem to have gotten the exposures all looking right on E100 (@ 100) when I hadn't even measured it at the time. E100 does have a rather wide latitude for a slide film, apparently.

That camera I use quite a bit less because its lens doesn't end up parallel to the film plane, so all my images with it are noticeably out of focus. I'd probably make a thread about that because that issue is out of hand that I don't like taking it out at all! (and because my M3 and EE17 are too much fun)
 

xkaes

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Assuming the rewind crank is the same as most cameras, you simply hold the end INSIDE the film chamber, and twist off the top COUNTERCLOCKWISE. They are usually just screwed together.

MAKE SURE you MAKE SURE the back CAN'T CLOSE with the rewind crank detached!!!

Often the shutter release cover and self-timer are held in place with a screw -- that requires an adjustable lock-wrench to remove.

If you can find a GOOD video of exactly what you want done, it's basically a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
 
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Crysist

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Thanks a bunch! Yeah, it seems very similar. I'll follow a video for that. And seeing as they're "just screw together" in many videos I've seen from other cameras, it seemed to be one of the most straightforward to tackle! I don't think the back closing will be a problem at all, because this camera doesn't open via the rewind crank being pulled up, but rather a little tab you pull on the side of the camera. I wouldn't close it up unless I got it fixed, anyway!

Also cause the rattling is annoying on an otherwise very sturdy camera!
 

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I'm not familiar with the Demi, but it looks like it has a traditional leaf shutter. If you want to get to the bottom of this you would need to strip the shutter, clean the components and reassemble with specific lubricants. There is no eccentric to tune the speeds. You would also probably need a proper tester for the 1/500=2ms settings (960fps gives you +/- 1ms).

If your measurements are accurate, they are typical for a 50+ year old camera that probably wasn't serviced. And not all that bad really. But it seems the camera has other issues. Apart from the shutter these cameras are usually simple to take apart. Helicoids can also be tricky.
 
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Crysist

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Well, as per the above, I'm still probably not gonna jump at trying to fix the shutter unless I'm entirely prepared

But, as for the cleaning routine, yeah I see watchmakers do that all the time in videos. Disassemble the geartrains, throw it in the cute little baskets into the cleaning machine or an ultrasonic cleaner... but then put them all back using multiple of like 10 different lubricants. That last part was always the confusing part.

Is there no eccentric screw? Nothing to adjust it? I know a sluggish shutter usually ends up requiring that cleaning procedure you outline, but how ever would large speed deviations be fixed in leaf shutter cameras without a way to adjust it?

And yeah, the 1/500 "measured" time is approximate, I based it off what I saw of the shutter motion in those few frames. I saw 2 entirely open (4 and 5), then a partial opening on the preceding (3, beginning at the end of 2) and following (6) frames, so I counted those as 0.5, putting the total around 3 frames. 3/960 is actually 1/320, but that's the gist of how I "measured" it. Here are the video frames, from 1 to 7:



Edit - heh, you can "play" it pretty easily by maximizing a frame and advancing through them with the arrows!
 

OAPOli

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I guess the escapement sub-assembly is a sort of eccentric; you can slightly adjust its position to tune the timings. In other shutters you can bend a tiny pin. Not sure if these techniques apply to the Demi. Usually cleaning and lubricating will bring it within specs, which is a 1/3 stop (at and below 1/125s) and a 1/2 stop (above 1/125s).

(BTW, leaf shutters have an effective exposure time that depends on the f/number for the faster speeds)

There is a service manual for the Demi (not EE17) if you want to investigate further.
 

bernard_L

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Crysist said:
If I may ask, what can I safely do? I don't want to let every issue go unaddressed, and I asked in this forum because I had an interest in doing it myself. That includes information about the differences between lubricants, etc.
Click to expand...
How can forum members tell you what you can safely do? Not knowing your natural skill, experience, tooling? And even if these were known, as I wrote, there remains a part of risk.

Your camera, your skills. Read the service manual and watch the videos.

Lubricants, google the forums, you will get all kinds of answers, including no lubricant. Then what? My experience: I bought years ago some Swiss watch oil Moebius 9020; thought it was the clever thing. Turns out, after time-consuming cycles of assembling, timing, dis-assembly, I believe that oil has too high viscosity, maybe should have got Moebius 9014. The last shutter I serviced, I let the escapement run dry; that is a recommendation of a number of people with more experience than me (other experienced people have different opinions). Speeds except the fastest are within 15% of nominal, 1/5 stop.
 
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bernard_L

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perkeleellinen said:
I'm keen to know what Ektachrome looks like at 800.
Click to expand...
bernard_L said:
Probably like grossly overdone Harry Gruyaert.

Care to elaborate on the relation of this to the OP and the responses so far?
Click to expand...
Crysist said:
Um, I'm getting confused by your responses, did I do something wrong?
Click to expand...
I had missed your passing mention of "pushing" Ekta to 800, so the remark by @perkeleellinen seemed out of context. My remark "overdone Harry Gruyaert" was about the likely outcome of such pushing, in a general sense; it could not have been be about your results, good or bad, since you had not shown any that point of the discussion. More important, this 800 Ekta thing is peripheral in the discussion.
 
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Crysist

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Good to know. I well certainly hold off for the Demi unless it gets noticeably worse or something. But, in terms of risk vs reward, I would definitely be willing to do it on my Super Ikonta. I actually got some well-exposed slides and its shutter was even less accurate than my Demi. Again, though, that might be E100 (@ 100) giving some leeway there. I would be less concerned with the inaccuracy of the shutter in that case too because the more pressing issue I have with it is that the front standard just doesn't erect to be parallel with the film plane, even with the struts extended straight. But that's a matter for another thread.

Also, checked out the service manual, nothing about fixing the shutter accuracy but some info about a stuck shutter and some other things.

Well, not that exactly, but surely there is a place in the range from "I would be comfortable with a child doing this repair" to "you must be a master in watch servicing, machining, and have a bunch of specialized tooling to accomplish this successfully" where this kind of service sits and I merely wanted to gain context for it. That's all.

I watched the few videos that I could find, as I linked, they aren't too plentiful and none pertain to this issue. I searched this forum but didn't readily find information about adjusting a leaf shutter's speeds. There's a lot of information about adjusting focal plane shutters and many people seem comfortable doing that adjustment. It does seem easier in general with curtain shutters. And I read the service manual, as I mentioned above, it doesn't mention this particular issue. It does provide a lubricant, liquid molybdenum, for certain parts but I can't tell whether that's fine for the shutter escapement. So I made a thread.

And thank you for providing that info. It at least gives some clarity on the depth of the whole lubricant question I had, even if I'm not gonna take action on the shutter for this camera.

Right, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression you were making a statement that I was ignorantly taking an approach that would only lead to garish results; in tandem with your first reply being, from an experienced position, a stern word of warning for what I would be attempting. I interpreted it all as being dismissive or even peeved at me. Please excuse my confusion, I appreciate your contribution here!

perkeleellinen said:
Apologies all for the distraction and thanks to Crysist for showing his work.
Click to expand...
It's no problem! This is a photography forum, so I'm more than happy to share what I've gotten from my efforts! Especially if it gives context to my situation, or is helpful for someone else. And I'm a yap-aholic so I'm fine sharing, as you can probably tell by this and every other reply getting longer and longer.

I had watched a video some months ago where the guy was testing pushing slide films different amounts. He basically showed you can do around 2 stops with Provia 100 before it gets muddy, but E100 can handle 3 stops (so EI 800) and still look very nice. I hope the images I shared give an impression of that; with the exception of my novice color correction skills...

In-person the color still looks great to me, with a much tighter latitude range such that one-stop overexposure badly blew out the scene I presented when I tried it, and of course the grain is a lot more prominent. Funnily enough, despite all those less than ideal effects, the edges of some high contrast lettering on a shirt was resolved sharply right down to E100's purported limit of ~105lp/mm, despite pushing 3 stops and shooting a moving target at 1/90 sec on a zone focus half-frame from 1966! To me, that was all super impressive and cool!

And 106lp/mm is the Nyquist limit of my scanner lol. Ok -- I haven't done that whole edge slant test thing for MTF but you get the point, confounding factors, I'm rambling and this comment is getting too long
 
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Crysist

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bernard_L said:
More opinions on shutter adjustment and lubrication:
Click to expand...

Wow, that's really helpful! I'd seen this forum referenced before but since a bunch of its content is archived I didn't really consider it. Thanks a lot, it gives a broader idea of the whole scope of this!


It seemed tight already, but either way I went ahead and took it off, keeping all the parts together. And then when referencing this page on EE17 disassembly I noticed something... seemingly, there should be 2 washers on the fork. Mine only has the left one, the one with the larger notch:



Without it, the "fork" piece that is fastened with that pin going through it, is pretty loose and jangles around.

I suppose I can find a replacement that works, right? Guess this is kinda a small-time "repair" lol

On the other hand, I'm curious if the other parts around the lens are less high-risk to investigate? Like the aperture and shutter dials. They're a bit stiff on mine, and the "filter factor" lever takes a LOT of force to move back to 1x.
 
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