Canadians: Bromoil chemicals - where?

walter23 · Oct 30, 2007

I need potassium bromide, potassium dichromate, copper sulfate, and sulfuric acid.

Two of those things are on DEA control lists, three are hazardous materials, and so I can't order them from photo formulary or bostick & sullivan.

Any Canadians know of chemical supply places I could get this stuff from?

Thanks

Mike Wilde · Oct 31, 2007

JD Photochem

Give Claire a call - she is always most helpful, and is outside of Montreal. Google JD Photochem for all the details. She will ship Canada parcel post if you ask.

CRhymer · Oct 31, 2007

Hello walter23,

Claire has given me very good service. For sulphuric acid, try auto parts stores, Canadian Tire, etc. It is sold in cubes for filling/topping up auto batteries. Since I live in the NT, shipping hazmats is expensive, and Claire may not be able to ship sulphuric by post without extra charges. I bought a cube for just over $20.00 IIRC at my local service station. At any rate, the battery variety is sufficiently pure for acid /dichromate bleach for B&W reversal. Do you need 1%? A cube will last you a very long time. You can dilute it as needed, and it keeps a very long time. It is very inexpensive.

Cheers,
Clarence

walter23 · Oct 31, 2007

The recipe calls for 10ml of 10% in a bunch of water (with the other reagents), but if the battery acid is more dilute I can probably just adjust the volumes as needed to compensate.

Craig · Oct 31, 2007

walter23 said:
The recipe calls for 10ml of 10% in a bunch of water

That's the standard concentration geologists use for testing various rocks. Since you're in Calgary there has to be a place that specializes in wellsite supplies. Have you got a friend who works for a fracing or cementing company? They use lots of that acid.

walter23 · Oct 31, 2007

I'm actually pretty removed from the oil industry - don't work in it, don't have friends in it. I do work in the same building as some biochemistry labs but I'm hesitant to start asking them to take home little bottles of their reagents. I did almost score some when a lab was cleaning out its cupboards but someone beat me to the H2SO4. On the bright side I did get a huge bottle of ammonium ferric citrate (and ferric ammonium citrate, which apparently is a different compound - it's dark purple), sodium thiosulfate, tween-20, and a couple of salts used for contrast control or something in platinum printing.

Craig · Oct 31, 2007

How about a home centre type place? They generally sell Muratic acid as a cleaner for paint prep. I'm guessing, but a place like Colverdale out in Foothills industrial park (61 ave SE) would probably have it too.

Snapshot · Oct 31, 2007

Nymoc Limited in Toronto has sulfuric acid. A 500ml of concentrated sulfuric acid will run about $15 CDN. Your best bet to obtain sulfuric acid locally is to call an auto parts store (e.g. NAPA) and buy battery acid, which is 30% sulfuric acid. The minimum, however, is ususally 20 litres, which runs about $40 CDN. If you have a science store, they can order sulfuric acid, although the pricing will be inflated substantially.

If you are interested in purchases from Nymoc, I can provide you with contact information.

CRhymer · Oct 31, 2007

A couple of notes:

The specific gravity will be listed on the outside of the cube of battery acid from which you can calculate the % of acid. Assuming a concentration of 30% will be close enough for your dilutions.

Craig, Muriatic Acid is HCl.

Snapshot, I am surprised that acid prices have gone up that much, but so has everything. I am paying $.90/l for heating oil.

One more question. Are you using the acid for an acid bath to remove chromium oxide? You could try EDTA (last I checked it was not hazmat - who knows now?).

I must add that I am not a bromoilist (it is on the to do list), so I may be way off base. I did buy a box of paper from J&C just before they went futz.

Now I am keen, no wait, back to emulsion making.

Cheers,
Clarence

Snapshot · Oct 31, 2007

CRhymer said:
Snapshot, I am surprised that acid prices have gone up that much, but so has everything. I am paying $.90/l for heating oil.

I should move where you are. I believe most of the cost is the 'handling' fee as 100ml of sulfuric acid was almost $12 CDN.

Gene_Laughter · Oct 31, 2007

I have made many hundreds of bromoil prints over a period of many years. I have yet to use the first drop of sulfuric acid. If you use distilled water for the bleach, sulfuric acid is not necessary.

Cheers,

Gene

CRhymer · Nov 1, 2007

Hello Gene,

Thank you.

I love it when problems just evaporate. Now I am getting really keen to try it.

Cheers,
Clarence

walter23 · Nov 1, 2007

Gene - you don't need to mention that you've done a lot of bromoil! I don't think one can read about the technique anywhere without seeing your name mentioned.

I've heard the acid is to compensate for harder water (which we definitely have here). Maybe that was in this thread, hmm. Anyway I almost think getting DW would be about as much trouble as getting acid, though the advantage of getting the acid is that once I've got a bottle it will be good for a very long time (whereas I'd be using much greater quantities of DW).

Gene_Laughter · Nov 1, 2007

Walter, Sometimes, when I have been unable to get distilled water, I have used boiled water instead. Or, I have in a pinch just used hard tap water. At any rate, sulfuric acid is not a necessity for producing bromoil prints. The old bromoil process is sooooo chock-full of myths! :>)

Good luck!

Gene

Gene_Laughter · Nov 1, 2007

There's another alternate route to take that doesn't pass through sulfuric acidville::

Bleach:

Copper sulphate 30 grams
Pot bromide 30 grams
Pot bichromate 1.5 grams
7% acetic acid 7 ml
tap water to make 1 liter

Dilute 1:3 for working solution

(7% acetic acid is 1 part 28% to 3 parts water)

Gene_Laughter · Nov 1, 2007

There's one other reason, that to me is important, NOT to use sulfuric acid. After bleaching, with sulfuric acid, one has an absolutely blank white sheet of photographic paper. Without sulfuric acid, there's a greenish-tan ghost image left. To me this visible ghost image is an aid in the inking of the matrix. The ink covers the ghost image and it does no harm to the final print, but it sure helps me in the initial inking stage. My 2 cents worth! More important than sulfuric acid are the following two tips: One: print the photo paper for the matrix darker than you think it should be. This particularly holds true if one uses super coated paper for bromoil, which I prefer. Kentmere Fineprint VC is my current favorite paper for bromoil. And, two: stiffen the lithographic ink so that it's harder and stiffer than you think it should be! Again, good luck and have fun! Gene

CRhymer · Nov 1, 2007

Gene_Laughter said:
There's another alternate route to take that doesn't pass through sulfuric acidville::

Bleach:

Copper sulphate 30 grams
Pot bromide 30 grams
Pot bichromate 1.5 grams
7% acetic acid 7 ml
tap water to make 1 liter

Dilute 1:3 for working solution

(7% acetic acid is 1 part 28% to 3 parts water)

Hello Gene,

Although I have 28% acetic on hand, do you see any problem in using white vinegar and adjusting the volume added to compensate for the lower concentration? Even 28% acetic costs more to ship here.

I have often wondered why it (white vinegar) is not often recommended as an inexpensive stop bath substitute (although commercial indicator stop bath is very inexpensive).

Cheers,
Clarence

Gene_Laughter · Nov 1, 2007

Clarence, I see no reason whatsoever not to use adjusted formula white vinegar. The only reason for sulfuric acid in the first place is to assist keeping the bleach ingredients in solution. I accomplish this with distilled water which is available for me at my corner supermarket. Heck, I'm sure rain water would work, too!

walter23 · Nov 5, 2007

Yeah, given how dilute the sulfuric acid is, and if the sulfate ions aren't the point but rather the acidity, I can imagine using a weaker acid would work as long as the conjugate base doesn't interfere with the chemistry somehow. Thanks for the tips - I'll try it with the acetic acid.

Also I'm glad that Kentmere Fineprint VC is suitable, as I've got a big stash of the stuff.

Would you recommend working with smaller sizes at first, or is it equally difficult to ink up an 11x14 as an 8x10? Obviously paper cost is an issue with larger sizes, but aside from that.

Gene_Laughter said:
There's another alternate route to take that doesn't pass through sulfuric acidville::

Bleach:

Copper sulphate 30 grams
Pot bromide 30 grams
Pot bichromate 1.5 grams
7% acetic acid 7 ml
tap water to make 1 liter

Dilute 1:3 for working solution

(7% acetic acid is 1 part 28% to 3 parts water)

Roy Pidgeon · Nov 6, 2007

chemicals

walter23 said:
I need potassium bromide, potassium dichromate, copper sulfate, and sulfuric acid.

Two of those things are on DEA control lists, three are hazardous materials, and so I can't order them from photo formulary or bostick & sullivan.

Any Canadians know of chemical supply places I could get this stuff from?

Thanks

I'm having trouble with the mails on this RoyPidgeon 279-3052 Calgary phone me I have some potassium bromide ,sulfuric acid and some copper sulfate

Roy Pidgeon · Nov 6, 2007

I have some of these chemicals Roy 279-3052 phone me

walter23 · Nov 6, 2007

Roy Pidgeon said:
I'm having trouble with the mails on this RoyPidgeon 279-3052 Calgary phone me I have some potassium bromide ,sulfuric acid and some copper sulfate

I'll give you a call on that sulfuric acid next week; the rest I have ordered from JD photochem. (the reason I say next week is that I've got a major presentation to give next Wednesday and despite a bit of APUG procrastination I can't really get away from my desk to go out and pick stuff up, even over the weekend).

Canadians: Bromoil chemicals - where?

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