Can you help figure out where the problems is/was? HP5+

I just hung 5 rolls; 3 rolls of Ilford HP5+, and 2 rolls of some off the wall C-41 that I develop as B&W (see footnote below).

It's one of the rolls of HP5+ that I'm having an issue with. All 3 rolls were same expiration and same lot/batch number, and the boxes were sealed before I loaded them. I was running tests on some new to me RF's and lenses, and all 3 rolls were shot at the same time over the course of 2 days.

So the problem; one of the rolls is black from leader until frame 29, as if it was held up to the light. From frame 29 on, everything looks great. But frames below that are completely black, not even rebate/edge markings are visible. It's a solid black, not pattern, mottling, waviness, etc. It's like the roll was pulled out of the cassette up to fr 29 and held to the light.

What I know for sure;
The back was never opened once loaded
Cassette was only opened in the darkbag for loading onto the reel.
This roll was developed along with the other 4 in moderately fresh D-76 1+1
Visible frames look perfectly fine
Shutter on the camera (Canon 7) is working fine (I just sat here for about 15 mins tripping the shutter continuously at all speeds)


It's the lack of rebate markings that has me puzzled. This is a new to me camera, so at first I thought shutter or some other camera related issue, but without rebate markings, I can only assume a film issue.

Could this possibly be a factory problem on this one roll? I'm sure there is a 0.0001% chance that a single roll from a batch can be screwed up at the factory, but other then that, I'm stumped!

I'll try and get a pic up soon.

*Footnote - I bought 100 rolls of 12 exp unknown 400ASA C-41 film for the reusable cassettes, and it turns out the film performs decently, and is great for testing basics on new cameras. I develop in B&W 'cause it works for what I need.

And there it is

Check your changing bag.

Changing bag would be ok, as all rolls were loaded at the same time. Ie, all 5 rolls were in the bag at the same time, and if there were an issue with the bag, it would have affected all the rolls to some degree, no?

One other thing, I know which camera it was because the first frames were of the camera's name in MS Word. The Contax and the Canon IIB frames were on their rolls, so I know it came from the Canon 7.

Kirks518 said:

Changing bag would be ok, as all rolls were loaded at the same time. Ie, all 5 rolls were in the bag at the same time, and if there were an issue with the bag, it would have affected all the rolls to some degree, no?

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Not if it was the last roll you took out of the cassette, and it was at that time the zipper opened or one arm came out of the armhole or???

It was second roll loaded (fourth out of the tank after developing). My bag also has a velcro flap covering the zippers, and my arms never left the bag.

I'm guessing it was a factory problem, like yours was the first roll off a new master roll and someone forgot to toss it.

Bill Burk said:

I'm guessing it was a factory problem, like yours was the first roll off a new master roll and someone forgot to toss it.

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10 Nov 2016

Echo Bill Burke's analysis.

Regards,
Darwin

Shit happens! And yes, it even happens in factories too. I would expect other folks had the same problem, but we here may never hear from those folks. That will lead many members here to assume it's the OP's fault. I have learned long ago to never assume anything.

I'd contact Ilford and explain the problem. Before doing so I'd just make sure that I went over every step to be sure that nothing other than a likely fault in the film's production could be at fault.

Let us know what the outcome of your contact is, thanks

pentaxuser

The only other thing I could think of was a bad light leak at the hinge (the only non-mechanical light seal that I can see). I short shot the roll, and there were only frames 30/31, and half of frame 29 that 'came out'. When I aligned FR 31 to the film gate, the bad area ends 5 sprocket holes back from the hinge, which is opposite the spool from the hinge. I'm about 95% sure it's not a light seal on the body because of where it lands.

I'm at the moment washing another test roll (this time the C-41 stuff), and I'll know in a few minutes if it's a camera or film issue.

Ok, the C-41 came out fine, and was shot in brighter light then the Ilford, so I'm going with Bill Burke's assessment as the final word. Can't think of any other possibility.

pentaxuser said:

I'd contact Ilford and explain the problem. Before doing so I'd just make sure that I went over every step to be sure that nothing other than a likely fault in the film's production could be at fault.

Let us know what the outcome of your contact is, thanks

pentaxuser

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This.

Speculation, even if by well-informed souls like Bill, will always be trumped by an investigation of the actual materials by the manufacturer

The reason I'm uncomfortable with the conclusion that it is a factory fault (which certainly could happen) is that I would assume that the problem would be at the other end of the film if it was the end of a master roll.

This is based on the assumption that the end of the roll would be attached to the cassette's core first.

Yes, that end would be in the cassette, so can you confirm the over exposure extended all the way the the spool? If so, it would be difficult for the user to expose the film in that manner if this is not 'self-loaded' bulk film.
That is, if the user pulled the film out of the cassette and exposed it to light that way, the over exposure would be on the other end of the roll.

Just for your information, I'm using (bulk loading, developing, and ordinary cassette rolls using ) from Ilford film since 1980, and NEVER came across a fogged film like this. My bet is at the retailer or some shift* happened at any point with you. But that's a possibility, we all have a miserable day sometimes, turning the lights on with the photo paper box not closed, or pulling a dark slide with the iris lens opened, that's life. Try out another roll to see what happens. Maybe a clogged curtain on the camera, or other alien like this,

Cheers,

Renato

Unless you attach the cassette spool with the lights out, every bulk loaded roll has this pattern. The processed film will be black from the cassette spool to the light trap on the bulk loader.

Ok, I'll go into greater detail about this roll, and the circumstances around my use of it. At this point, I too question whether it was a factory issue. I think there is still potential for a camera body light seal being the culprit.

I had 3 cameras I wanted to test - Contax IIa, Canon IIb, Canon 7
I wanted to shoot the same type of film in each so I could develop them together
I have lots of factory rolled, factory sealed, HP5+
I grabbed 3 of those rolls that were from a factory taped pack
Loaded all three cameras at the same time, in the same place
Never pulled the film out of the cassette more then is needed to load the film
Put all 3 cameras in a camera bag
Shot all 3 rolls at the same time, in the same places (2 different parks)
Loaded all 3 rolls at the same time in the same dark bag onto developing reels, and then into the Paterson tank.
Developed all three rolls (+2 C-41's) in the same tank
Each of the 3 rolls were identified by the first 2 frames, which were a pic of the name of the respective camera on my laptop screen
The roll in question was the 4th roll out of the tank (2nd one in)
All other rolls were normal

The roll in question came from the Canon 7
This was the first roll through the Canon 7 and the Contax IIa for me

The roll was short shot to 31 frames, as I just wanted to finish it up, and get it developed. Frame 29 is where the transition occurs from normal to completely fogged, in the almost exact middle. Thinking that it could be a bad light seal at the hinge for the back, I loaded the developed film onto the take up, and then marked where the film was when fr #31 was at the gate. In this position, the fogging stops 5 sprocket holes before it gets to the hinge area. That puts the fogging ending on the other front side (of the camera) of the take up spool. This area is solid plastic(?), and would be away from the path of light if it is the seal. If I advance the film to move fr 32 into the film gate, the fogging passes the seal area, and part of the good area of fr 29 is then 1 sprocket hole past the seal area. I would think that if it was a bad seal, anything at or past the seal area would have been fogged. Examining the seal, it looks to be in good condition, but I am aware that looks can be deceiving when it comes to light seals.

I ran another roll (C-41) through the camera yesterday, and it showed no fogging. Which led me to believe that the seal is good. However, the roll was shot relatively quickly, so any extraneous light would have had limited time at the bad area. Today I am going to run another roll through the 7, and it will be with strong sunlight, and the roll will be shot at a normal pace.

Hopefully I'll be able to develop the roll tonight, and I'll report my findings then.

What has happened is that the film has been light-struck from the leader till frame 29; and rather evenly and heavily at that. This isn't a random light-strike like a leak in a camera back or hole in a changing bag, which will leave some areas exposed more than others and some not exposed at all.

It looks to me as if the film were pulled out of the cassette in bright light and then rewound, possibly long before it made it into the camera. How or where that happened is up for speculation.

The good news is that it is not a camera or processing error.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus, that's my gut feeling, but like RSalles says, it would be incredibly odd for it to have happened with a factory sealed roll. I think I may have hit a lottery with this roll.

Why not run another roll through the Canon 7 to eliminate a light leak as the problem? It seems odd that it would have a light leak for 29 exposures and then miraculously cure itself, but it is worth double-checking before you approach Ilford.

I have a little experience with the Canon 7 and have to ask a couple of questions. The Canon 7 series cameras have a metal shutter and it's almost impossible to find one that doesn't have a "wrinkled" curtain from improper loading and unloading. Once wrinkled they are almost impossible to straighten/flatted again. Is your curtain wrinkled? If the foller/capping curtain is wrinkled badly enough it can hang and not come across the film gate to cap the gate off. That acts as if you have your camera permanently set to "B" or "T". If it's hung-up you can go on taking photos and never know the follower curtain isn't capping. This could go on for one, two or many frames until it frees itself from the hang-up. Then it might not happen again for a long time or might happen all the time. Just a thought, but that certainly would cause a heavy fog that's for sure.

faberryman said:

Why not run another roll through the Canon 7 to eliminate a light leak as the problem? It seems odd that it would have a light leak for 29 exposures and then miraculously cure itself, but it is worth double-checking before you approach Ilford.

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I shot a roll or two in it today. will be developing it soon, and I'll post what I find.

John Wiegerink said:

I have a little experience with the Canon 7 and have to ask a couple of questions. The Canon 7 series cameras have a metal shutter and it's almost impossible to find one that doesn't have a "wrinkled" curtain from improper loading and unloading. Once wrinkled they are almost impossible to straighten/flatted again. Is your curtain wrinkled? If the foller/capping curtain is wrinkled badly enough it can hang and not come across the film gate to cap the gate off. That acts as if you have your camera permanently set to "B" or "T". If it's hung-up you can go on taking photos and never know the follower curtain isn't capping. This could go on for one, two or many frames until it frees itself from the hang-up. Then it might not happen again for a long time or might happen all the time. Just a thought, but that certainly would cause a heavy fog that's for sure.

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In this instance, the problem with that theory is that my rebate (edge markings outside of the frame area) were affected as well, so if it were any type of shutter issue, the rebate would have developed normally.

Kirks518 said:

I shot a roll or two in it today. will be developing it soon, and I'll post what I find.



In this instance, the problem with that theory is that my rebate (edge markings outside of the frame area) were affected as well, so if it were any type of shutter issue, the rebate would have developed normally.

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Stupid me! I went back and re-read and you're right........stupid me! Man, this is a mystery? You don't have anyone around that might have pulled the leader out and then rewound it back in to the beginning just to play a joke on you do you? You didn't piss your wife off and she's getting even?