Can you explain why HCB chose this photo?

MattKing · Dec 20, 2024

dpurdy said:
Is it good or is it bad is a judgment.

Those are not the only options though.
Saying a photo is, for example, "complex and dark" is a judgment, whether or not there is anything positive or negative attached to that judgment.
In the legal world, judgment equates with "decision".

Don_ih · Dec 20, 2024

In terms of rationality, "judgment" is completely tied to understanding.

And, you know, there's nothing wrong with saying something is good or bad if you can justify your claim.

Harry Callahan · Dec 20, 2024

snusmumriken said:
It’s not a question of passing judgement, it’s a question of wanting to understand.

Another idea i had is this:

As these pictures were presented in an exhibition first and then in a book second, maybe there is an interview with HCB he gave on the exhibition where he does explain (some) of his choosing. Or maybe there was a leaflet handed to visitors of this exhibition which did contain some explanation. Or some newspaper article about the exhibition containing some information. A book review from back then...

Pieter12 · Dec 20, 2024

Harry Callahan said:
Another idea i had is this:

As these pictures were presented in an exhibition first and then in a book second, maybe there is an interview with HCB he gave on the exhibition where he does explain (some) of his choosing. Or maybe there was a leaflet handed to visitors of this exhibition which did contain some explanation. Or some newspaper article about the exhibition containing some information. A book review from back then...

I think if anything, there might be more information in the book itself.

Hassasin · Dec 21, 2024

Maybe one day HCB's photography will get a judgement day it actually deserves (rathe not, since it is also old history now). Aura around it has historically been a distortion of reality, his keeper rate was very low, his shooting style was akin to modern day digital rapid-fire-then-see approach, but since we will never see the volumes that never saw the light of day, we will ever remain guessing. But his marketing skills draw similarities to what David Beckham has able to accomplish ... financially.

At the same time, I would not venture to discuss reasons for one's choosing of own photograph for public display, it's their business. I can criticise it, like it, or just be numb. My early excitement about HCB are on about 180 path at this point, even if I continue to appreciate aesthetics of some of his work.

Don_ih · Dec 21, 2024

Hassasin said:
his keeper rate was very low

I know mine is much higher...

Cartier Bresson probably did more to get photography taken seriously as an art form than anyone else (even Stieglitz). The number of photographers he directly or indirectly influenced is beyond calculation.

Hassasin · Dec 21, 2024

Don_ih said:
I know mine is much higher...

Cartier Bresson probably did more to get photography taken seriously as an art form than anyone else (even Stieglitz). The number of photographers he directly or indirectly influenced is beyond calculation.

My main gripe with HCB is one: when he project to the public the "decisive moment" which later was proven to be a total BS, I question integrity of the person and view his work from a different perspective. This does not stop me appreciating some of his photographs,

I just feel sorry for some up and coming still reading about HCB's snap-of-moment ability to record and an unforgettable image. And many never find out how many frames were used to actually pick and publish one of those takes.

Don_ih · Dec 21, 2024

Hassasin said:
many never find out how many frames were used to actually pick and publish one of those takes

Well, the fact of the matter is, that's unimportant. That he saw or invented something, took several shots to get just the right image (in his opinion) of that -- that doesn't diminish the final image or the effort. It doesn't make it any less of a "decisive moment", either. This photo:

He waited for something interesting. Maybe he took 36 photos of various people, dogs, cats, etc., wandering around down there. But this is the photo he presented.

Would you fault a painter for painting a dozen canvasses of one subject before hitting upon the one he or she thought was worthy of exhibition?

Alan Edward Klein · Dec 21, 2024

Hassasin said:
My main gripe with HCB is one: when he project to the public the "decisive moment" which later was proven to be a total BS, I question integrity of the person and view his work from a different perspective. This does not stop me appreciating some of his photographs,

I just feel sorry for some up and coming still reading about HCB's snap-of-moment ability to record and an unforgettable image. And many never find out how many frames were used to actually pick and publish one of those takes.

The decisive moment is not necessarily the photographer's skill but the fact that the photo recorded the decisive moment, even if it was by luck.

snusmumriken · Dec 21, 2024

Hassasin said:
My main gripe with HCB is one: when he project to the public the "decisive moment" which later was proven to be a total BS, I question integrity of the person and view his work from a different perspective.

I don’t see how one can ‘prove’ a working concept to be BS. I think a lot of people have understood exactly what he meant. My impression is that HCB had great personal integrity, while at the same time having a mercurial intellect.

And further to the points @Don_ih just made, you would apparently fault him for selecting his decisive moment and not sharing his dross, but would you fault him or any photographer for all the times they didn’t press the button because the moment wasn’t right? Selection - both before and after exposure - is very much part of expression. That’s what this thread is all about.

MattKing · Dec 21, 2024

I never took the "decisive moment" to refer to only taking photos at the "decisive moment".
It refers to having the skill, talent and knowledge to be able to recognize what a "decisive moment" actually is, and then the ability to get the result out to the world. And along with that, the ability to recognize which results were not successful, and to refrain from sharing those.
Except for constraints as to how much film one has on hand, or the cost of film, it has no particular connection with how many shots are taken.
HCB had an extra-ordinary ability to recognize a "decisive moment" - both at the time of exposure, and possibly more importantly, at various other times during the process of converting a photographic opportunity to a photograph worthy of presentation.
I expect that like many (but certainly not all) great photographers, HCB could have been a great editor.
HCB worked with what was then still often referred to as a "miniature" format - 35mm film. And he took advantage of that when he took many photographs that didn't succeed, as part of his process.
The percentage of "keepers" has little or no relevance to the success of a photographer. It is merely an indication of what process they choose, and how suitable that process is for their intentions.
I'm no HCB, but any time I am doing something that is anything like street photography I know that I learn from each exposure I make, and that that knowledge informs my decisions about the next exposure I make. The "earlier" frames are not wasted - the process of making them contributes to the ones that follow.
And along with that comes the corollary that sometimes frustrates my wife greatly - it is never a mistake to spend a fair bit of time approaching the making of a photograph, only to decide at the end to not make one, because I recognized that there wasn't something "there" that would result in a photograph that would be successful.
I expect that there is a fiction out there that HCB only took great photos. And it wouldn't surprise me if that fiction was used for marketing purposes. The existence of marketing fiction like that is not of any particular consequence, other than to anyone planning to take a "How To" course or buy a "How To" book, which to my knowledge HCB never offered.

Pieter12 · Dec 21, 2024

HCB took great photos, made some happen in some circumstances (the bicycle and stairs one cited earlier), had a great eye for composition. Technically his work was less than ideal, but he never stressed that. There is a famous quote from later in his career, "sharpness is a bourgeois concept" that may have been tongue-in-cheek. What bugs me was his attitude about cropping. I'd wager some of his photos were not published or published smaller because of that stipulation, plus one of his most famous photos, the puddle jumper, was severely cropped.

Alex Benjamin · Dec 21, 2024

Hassasin said:
My main gripe with HCB is one: when he project to the public the "decisive moment" which later was proven to be a total BS, I question integrity of the person and view his work from a different perspective.

Don't blame Cartier-Bresson for myths about him and his works that aren't of his making. He stated over and over again that it was only the English title of a book. In this 1973 interview, for example:

— What exactly to you mean by The Decisive Moment, the American title of Images à la sauvette?
— You want to know more about the title? Well, I had nothing to do with it. I found a line in the memoirs of Cardinal de Retz, in which he said: "There is nothing in this world which does not have a decisive moment." I used the quote as an inscription in the French edition, and when we were thinking of titles for the American edition, we had a whole page of possibilities. Suddenly, Dick Simon said: "Why not use 'The Decisive Moment'?"

Not that he didn't believe that there is a moment when the photographer sees within the frame something he likes, that fits into his own sense of the tye of composition he likes. Same interview:

— Are youy able to define the moment when you press the button?
— Oh, yes. It's a question of concentration. Concentrate, think, watch, look, and hop, like this, you are ready. But you never know the apex of an event before it happens. So you're shooting, you saty to yourself: "Yes, yes, maybe, yes." But you shouldn't overshoot... Because by the time you press the shutter, and you are ready to shoot once more, maybe you have lost the picture that was in-between.

What he says about concentration can be directly linked to his affinity with Buddhism and his reading of Zen in the Art of Archery. And nowhere did he ever states, as is sometimes heard, that he only took one shot and that was it. From a 1957 interview:

— A contact sheet is so interesting, because you see how a photographer thinks. He comes closer and closer to a subject, corrects it, looks at it again, and then with tiny movements turns around until it is in exactly the right and exact relation to him.

If you look at any contact sheet by Cartier-Bresson, this is exactly what you see.

This excerpt from a 1986 interview is also interesting:

— The concept of the "decisive moment" has become essential for the aesthetics of a whole generation of photographers. Others, such as Robert Frank, have defined themselves againts what this notion implies about the organization of visualy space and of the world, and have characterized you work with the limited term of "classic space".
— ... It was Dick Simon who found the title for the book, The Decisive Moment, after I had simply used an excerpted quote by Cardinal de Retz as an epigraph in the book... In the end, all moments are equal. But all moments are indecisive within the stream of reality. However, for me, as for any artist, there is recognition of a life-saving formal order, countering disintegration through banality, chaos, and oblivion. And that can be found in Robert Frank's work too, though our visual solutions diverge, in accordance with our visions of the world.

P.S. Maybe just me, but "all moments are indecisive within the stream of reality" would have fitted just fine in any of George Harrison's song of the late 60s, early 70s...

cliveh · Dec 21, 2024

As Matt alludes to, photography is a learning process. If you spend most of your life taking photographs, eventually you will get quite good at it. Just as a cabinet maker may spend years carving and cutting wood. It is very rare to take something up and suddenly be brilliant at it. Patience is a virtue that many people have little time for today. I remember I once had a student join my class and he developed a film that didn't come out, so he just packed in the subject.

MattKing · Dec 21, 2024

Alex Benjamin said:
— A contact sheet is so interesting, because you see how a photographer thinks. He comes closer and closer to a subject, corrects it, looks at it again, and then with tiny movements turns around until it is in exactly the right and exact relation to him.

If you look at any contact sheet by Cartier-Bresson, this is exactly what you see.

Exactly!
Whether you are HCB, or whether you are taking photographs at your nephew's birthday party!
Sometimes though you find things in the Contact Sheet that you appreciate more after the fact - which is one of the reasons I still make them, because appreciation is aided by seeing the results all together on the same page.

MattKing · Dec 21, 2024

cliveh said:
As Matt alludes to, photography is a learning process. If you spend most of your life taking photographs, eventually you will get quite good at it. Just as a cabinet maker may spend years carving and cutting wood. It is very rare to take something up and suddenly be brilliant at it. Patience is a virtue that many people have little time for today. I remember I once had a student join my class and he developed a film that didn't come out, so he just packed in the subject.

I've always though "The Asymptotic Nature of Photography" would be a worthwhile topic for an article.

Sirius Glass · Dec 21, 2024

MattKing said:
I never took the "decisive moment" to refer to only taking photos at the "decisive moment".
It refers to having the skill, talent and knowledge to be able to recognize what a "decisive moment" actually is, and then the ability to get the result out to the world. And along with that, the ability to recognize which results were not successful, and to refrain from sharing those.
Except for constraints as to how much film one has on hand, or the cost of film, it has no particular connection with how many shots are taken.
HCB had an extra-ordinary ability to recognize a "decisive moment" - both at the time of exposure, and possibly more importantly, at various other times during the process of converting a photographic opportunity to a photograph worthy of presentation.
I expect that like many (but certainly not all) great photographers, HCB could have been a great editor.
HCB worked with what was then still often referred to as a "miniature" format - 35mm film. And he took advantage of that when he took many photographs that didn't succeed, as part of his process.
The percentage of "keepers" has little or no relevance to the success of a photographer. It is merely an indication of what process they choose, and how suitable that process is for their intentions.
I'm no HCB, but any time I am doing something that is anything like street photography I know that I learn from each exposure I make, and that that knowledge informs my decisions about the next exposure I make. The "earlier" frames are not wasted - the process of making them contributes to the ones that follow.
And along with that comes the corollary that sometimes frustrates my wife greatly - it is never a mistake to spend a fair bit of time approaching the making of a photograph, only to decide at the end to not make one, because I recognized that there wasn't something "there" that would result in a photograph that would be successful.
I expect that there is a fiction out there that HCB only took great photos. And it wouldn't surprise me if that fiction was used for marketing purposes. The existence of marketing fiction like that is not of any particular consequence, other than to anyone planning to take a "How To" course or buy a "How To" book, which to my knowledge HCB never offered.

Many times I can catch the decisive moment in one shot, but sometimes it takes more and then to find it requires one to do some editing. Who really cares if it take more than one photograph? If someone had the audacity to criticize me for taking more than one photograph to capture the decisive moment, they better no be standing near window because hypothetically or actually the would be thrown through a window at the decisive moment.

cliveh · Dec 21, 2024

Pieter12 · Dec 21, 2024

Very nice. Besides probably violating copyright law, how does this pertain to the query of why HCB chose the photograph in question?

Sirius Glass · Dec 21, 2024

cliveh said:

We was cheated! There are at least two photographs in that video that were shown twice! Show two different photographs or give us our money back.

Sirius Glass · Dec 21, 2024

snusmumriken said:
I have a copy of the book 'Henri Cartier Bresson: Photographer', originally published by Delpire in 1979. As I understand it, the book's contents were selected by HCB with Delpire, so they can be considered to be HCB's idea of 'My Personal Best'. Of course I am in awe of HCB, and always enjoy this book when I pull it off the shelf. Actually it omits some of my favourite HCB photos, while it includes a few that leave me wondering why they were included. This is one example. I just don't see anything special about it. Can anyone make me see what HCB saw in it, among so many gems?

@cliveh: this might be up your street?

View attachment 385177

HBC saw and photographed many things, people and situations that we never noticed until we saw a print of it. This is just one that I still do not see after looking a the print.

cliveh · Dec 21, 2024

Pieter12 said:
Very nice. Besides probably violating copyright law, how does this pertain to the query of why HCB chose the photograph in question?

It doesn't, I just thought I would treat you to his imagery, which may help to put the original image in perspective of his talent.

Don_ih · Dec 21, 2024

I think the original question stems from the photo being in the context of his talent.

Harry Callahan · Dec 21, 2024

Pieter12 said:
I think if anything, there might be more information in the book itself.

I did some research and there actually is an interview from 1979; though it was made before the exhibition this book is from. But maybe this exhibition already was being planned when he did this interview, so maybe there are some hints in this interview.
It's on page 69 (resp. 70 in the pdf) and following:

{Moderator note: link removed, as it is likely a link to a site in breach of copyright}

Don_ih · Dec 22, 2024

Harry Callahan said:
it is likely a link to a site in breach of copyright

Perhaps you can quote the important part?

You don't violate copyright quoting text from an article, particularly in a (basically) academic discussion such as this.

Can you explain why HCB chose this photo?

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