Can toning increase the blacks of a print?

silvercloud2323 · Jun 8, 2023

Can toning increase the blacks of a print?
My own prints are not bad, but they need some more clarity and brilliance .
There for i might do bleaching for the whites ,and toning for the blacks?

thx,

Anon Ymous · Jun 8, 2023

Yes, selenium toning can help a bit.

grahamp · Jun 8, 2023

Selenium is really useful for deepening very small shadow areas that you cannot burn in - shingle beaches, vegetation.

DREW WILEY · Jun 8, 2023

Toning is always necessary to achieve full DMax. Common options are selenium and gold chloride.

Sirius Glass · Jun 8, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
Can toning increase the blacks of a print?

thx,

Yes, and depending on the toner and method it can increase the contrast varying amounts, a big plus.

silvercloud2323 · Jun 8, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Toning is always necessary to achieve full DMax. Common options are selenium and gold chloride.

Ok, Full DMax îs full black probably? And also how can you achieve this. Is there a method?

koraks · Jun 8, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
There for i might do bleaching for the whites ,and toning for the blacks?

I'd start by getting the most out of your prints without toning or bleaching first.
You vant bleach beyond paper white, so if your prints don't hit that whiteness level (while you would want them to), there's room for improvement in your printing approach.
For the blacks, to an extent the same is true.

Toning will make a slight difference, but odds are that you're trying to solve a problem in a different area.

I'm not saying you should not tone your prints, mind you. By all means, have fun with toners and experiment! It's just not going to make up significantly for a lack of contrast control in the preceding printing process.

cliveh · Jun 8, 2023

If you want maximum black in your prints, you should not rely on toning, but when printing give correct exposure and develop the print for complete development. Using gloss paper also helps.

MattKing · Jun 8, 2023

It is difficult to explain with words the effect of toning.
Yes, selenium toning can increase the difference in appearance between highlights and shadows in an image.
But that result is affected by a myriad of factors - particularly the type of paper, the warmth of the image tone, the surface type, the developer used and the nature of the subject itself.
It is a very worthwhile experience to take a work print that you think is close, cut it in half, tone one half, and then compare the results.
Once you have achieved some success in getting prints you like, adding toning can refine those results. With some experience, you can actually get to the point where you will adjust your prints to take into account the effects of toning.

MattKing · Jun 8, 2023

One further point:
The colour of the image tone is, of course, affected by toning. That change in colour has both objective and subjective effects. Here are two examples of the same image that sort of show the affect:

Sirius Glass · Jun 8, 2023

MattKing said:
It is difficult to explain with words the effect of toning.
Yes, selenium toning can increase the difference in appearance between highlights and shadows in an image.
But that result is affected by a myriad of factors - particularly the type of paper, the warmth of the image tone, the surface type, the developer used and the nature of the subject itself.
It is a very worthwhile experience to take a work print that you think is close, cut it in half, tone one half, and then compare the results.
Once you have achieved some success in getting prints you like, adding toning can refine those results. With some experience, you can actually get to the point where you will adjust your prints to take into account the effects of toning.

MattKing said:
One further point:
The colour of the image tone is, of course, affected by toning. That change in colour has both objective and subjective effects. Here are two examples of the same image that sort of show the affect:
View attachment 340826 View attachment 340827

Before toning as @MattKing mentioned get the most out of the print. Consider using split grade printing to help get the most white of the whites and the most black of the blacks.

DREW WILEY · Jun 8, 2023

There is simply no way to get full DMax based on "complete" development length alone. Anyone can easily prove this for themselves. And toning does not necessarily change image color. Selenium toning trends toward brown, but remained neutral with Ilford Galerie graded bromide paper, for example. Gold chloride toners such as the GP-1 formula can either simply deepen the blacks, or cool the image, or even split-tone certain papers. There are also protective qualities to these toners.

On the esthetic level, there is no single correct answer. Do whatever you need until the print looks right to you.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 8, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
Can toning increase the blacks of a print?
My own prints are not bad, but they need some more clarity and brilliance .
There for i might do bleaching for the whites ,and toning for the blacks?

thx,

selenium toning will increase Dmax but also change the print's color. light selenium toning will help.

snusmumriken · Jun 9, 2023

I tone Ilford Multigrade Classic in selenium to a point where there is a barely perceptible change in colour (1-2 minutes). It’s one of 3 things that makes the blacks look blacker. The second is retouching out any white spots: once those are gone the image really sinks into the paper. The third is getting the print really flat - I use a dry mounting press, but there are other ways of course.

cliveh · Jun 10, 2023

I don't know if this helps, but when teaching, I use to have two 10" X 8" sheets of printing paper mounted on the wall outside the darkroom. One was fogged and developed to maximum black and the other fixed straight out of the box. This allowed students to compare their printed highlights and shadows in daylight.

bernard_L · Jun 10, 2023

One comment about whites. I dissent with the advice (given twice above) to aim for max white. Paper has a toe, therefore placing the lightest regions at paper white degrades the separation of light tones, running counter to the goal (presumably highlight brillance). And... check for drydown.

One question re: max black. I recall reading that Se toning with more dilute toner tends to favor Dmax improvement rather than tone shift. And vice versa. Can anyone confirm based on personal experience? Please state which paper.

Sirius Glass · Jun 10, 2023

bernard_L said:
One comment about whites. I dissent with the advice (given twice above) to aim for max white. Paper has a toe, therefore placing the lightest regions at paper white degrades the separation of light tones, running counter to the goal (presumably highlight brillance). And... check for drydown.

One question re: max black. I recall reading that Se toning with more dilute toner tends to favor Dmax improvement rather than tone shift. And vice versa. Can anyone confirm based on personal experience? Please state which paper.

One can have maximum whites and maximum blacks by using split grade printing.

Print with timing strips with Magenta.
Get the best print timing.
Then expose the paper for the best Magenta print in step 2 and expose timing strips on the save paper with Yellow.
Pick out the best exposure with Yellow on the best exposure with Magenta, expose for those times for those filters.
Now based on the print from step 4, dodge and burn in Magenta and Yellow as necessary.

cliveh · Jun 10, 2023

bernard_L said:
One comment about whites. I dissent with the advice (given twice above) to aim for max white. Paper has a toe, therefore placing the lightest regions at paper white degrades the separation of light tones, running counter to the goal (presumably highlight brillance). And... check for drydown.

Surely that depends on what your goal is? The check against max white is not meant as absolute, but more as a guide.

koraks · Jun 11, 2023

bernard_L said:
I recall reading that Se toning with more dilute toner tends to favor Dmax improvement rather than tone shift.

Sounds bogus to me and I certainly never experienced anything like it. Dilute toner is just slooooow. That's all.

bernard_L · Jun 11, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
One can have maximum whites and maximum blacks by using split grade printing.

A pitch for split grade printing. I fail to see how this addresses the isue about highlight separation:

bernard_L said:
Paper has a toe, therefore placing the lightest regions at paper white degrades the separation of light tones

In split grade printing, the highlights are resulting from the yellow filter exposure; the magenta exposure contributing essentially nothing. So, the characteristic curve under the yellow filter has a toe, etc... as already stated.

bernard_L · Jun 11, 2023

koraks said:
Sounds bogus to me and I certainly never experienced anything like it. Dilute toner is just slooooow. That's all.

Good to know. Thank you.

snusmumriken · Jun 11, 2023

koraks said:
Sounds bogus to me and I certainly never experienced anything like it. Dilute toner is just slooooow. That's all.

From my experience I would say @koraks is right, but that the weaker mixture is easier to control. I dislike the slightly magenta tone that selenium gives, so I tone only to the point at which I can just notice a change in colour. With Ilford MG FB the shift (to my eyes, this has been debated before!) is from a greenish black to a neutral one. That only takes 1-2 minutes with the weaker 1+40 dilution. From what I’ve read, I don’t imagine that dose of selenium has much archival benefit, but it certainly deepens the blacks.

koraks · Jun 11, 2023

snusmumriken said:
From my experience I would say @koraks is right, but that the weaker mixture is easier to control

Yes, that's a valid point.

I'd also like to highlight what @bernard_L said about highlights vs whites. There's definitely something to his statement that warrants attention.

pentaxuser · Jun 11, 2023

silvercloud2323, you might want to take a look at this video on split grade printing to see what can be done and see if this offers you any ideas for the kind of improvement you want

pentaxuser

snusmumriken · Jun 11, 2023

koraks said:
I'd also like to highlight what @bernard_L said about highlights vs whites. There's definitely something to his statement that warrants attention.

I think the point @cliveh was making to his students was simply to use the full tonal range of the paper. As a key step towards fine prints, that is surely sound?

I see the point that @bernard_L is making, too, but it seems more like a refinement than a disagreement.

Can toning increase the blacks of a print?

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