Can the camera be hand held?

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ic-racer

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If I want to hand hold a camera I want results Identical to the tripod. Certainly many famous hand held photographs are blurry and that is fine. This discussion is just about photographs in which being blurry would detract from the image.

EI 200 film in a 35mm camera in bright sunlight gives me 1000th to 500th at F8. I cannot detect if the camera is on the tripod or not. This is great. This my be the reason 35mm was so popular for hand held photography.

What about other cameras? Well I suspect many think the lighter the camera the easier to hand hold but (flame suit on) that is incorrect. Heavy is better. Lets look at the extremes. Little MINOX is a problem in that it is so light. As an example, imagine that the camera was so light that the mass of the camera and the mass of the shutter release button were the same. Now when you squeeze the camera between you thumb and index finger the button would move down toward the camera just about the same distance as the camera moves up toward the button. If the release mechanism is super feather light, the camera and button can be made to move toward each other slowly with less blurring of the resulting picture. If the shutter button is stiff, then the camera and button will jerk toward each other rapidly and cause more blurring. The MINOX is 'wide open' all the time and this helps one use the fastest shutter speed possible.

What about a hand-held view camera. I have a Horseman 6x9 so I'll use that as an example. On a bright sunny day I could possibly use F8 at 1000th (assuming the shutter went that fast) but I don't want to use F8 with the Horseman. I'll explain why.

Rule of thumb for determining best aperture: I have many many lenses and cameras with various formats from 8mm movie cameras and MIINOX, to view cameras. How can I easily determine the best aperture? I know almost all my lenses will have aberrations that will improve with smaller f numbers. I also know that diffraction will increase as I stop down. So I need an F number that is a good compromise between improved aberrations and diffraction.

Using a combination of personal experience and historical precedent I came up with the following:
We know Oscar Barnack thought F11 was a good compromise for a 35mm Leica. My experience is that F8 is a little better if one is scrutinizing the photographs close up. F8 gives an aperture diameter about 6mm (I can't do a lot of math in my head but in the field I go like this for a 50mm lens: F1 = 50mm, F2 is half (25mm), F4 is half again (12mm) and F8 is half again (6mm)). F11 gives an aperture about 5mm. So somewhere around 5 to 6 mm is the smallest one wants to go.

We know that Walter Zapp put a f3.5, 15mm on his cameras and he knew that this lens should not be stopped down any further. So that works out to F1 = 15mm, F2 = 7.5mm, F3.5 about 5 to 6mm. (Other subminis like the Yashica Atron have smaller apertures but ..'blury is as blury gets...')

For my Horseman 6x9, I calculate F1=100mm, F2 = 50mm, F4 = 25mm, F8 = 12mm, F16 = 6mm. Therefore without having to do a lot of tests, I use F16.

If I had an 8x10 camera I would calculate F1 = 360, F2 = 180, F4 = 90, F8= 45
, F16 = 22, F32 = 11 and F64= 5.5

I think most photographers have their favorite F-number memorized for their favorite format. (I suspect that anyone that knows anything about the history of photography knows "F64 Group"). 4x5 use F22, Rolleiflex use F16, etc.

So this 5 to 6mm thing is for lenses with focal length similar to diagonal of film plane (the so called 'normal' lens) What about long focus, telephoto and wide angle lenses?

Without going into calculations and tests the easy way I think about it is that "Wide angle lenses MINIMIZE diffraction effects" and I conceptualize this as the wide angle lens shrinking the subject and also shrinking the little circles of confusion. Therefore one can get away with aperture diameters smaller than 5-6mm. Since a 25mm lens makes things 1/2 the size on the film plane (compared to a 50mm lens) we can figure a 3mm aperture would be OK. So this would be F1 = 25mm, F2 = 12mm, F4 = 6mm, F8 = 3mm.

So the short story is F8 to F11 is still good with the wide angle lens (on 35mm camera).

The telephoto and long focus lenses behave the same way in that a 100mm lens magnifies the effects of diffraction, so an aperture of 12mm is needed. We can figure F1 =100mm, F2 = 50mm, F4 = 25mm, F8 = 12mm.

Again I can just assign F8 to F11 as the optimum for all the lenses used on the 35mm camera.

I suspect this may not seem 'right' to many or others do it differently or some may come up with math to show how this cannot possibly be correct, but this is just the way I do it and it keeps my brain happy to organize things this way as I skip around between formats.

Now the big, big, big thing we come to next is that not only does this 6-5mm rule of thumb help figure out how much diffraction we can tolerate, it also lets us compare the depth of field between formats.

The bottom line is that 6 to 5mm aperture size on ALL formats (with 'normal' lens as described above) with have the same depth of field.

Here are some additional SYNONYMOUS statements:

1) At aperture sizes 6 to 5mm the foreground objects will all have the same level of fuzziness when focused at infinity for all camera sizes with the 'normal' lens

2) At aperture sizes 6 to 5mm the ability to Zone focus or estimate focus will be the same for all formats with normal lens. So, if you are good at guesstimating focus with your MIINOX you will be just as successful guesstimating focus with your homemade 8x10 camera with it's F65 lens! Since you may have made this camera out of steel and it 'weighs a ton' it you may be able to hand hold it at 1/30 of a second with i.e. 200 or 400 film in bright daylight. Of course if you tried to make it "as light as possible" it may not be usable.
 

Mick Fagan

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Very interesting reading.

I don't believe it is possible to obtain identical results in a hand held camera of any format, compared to one mounted on to a correctly sized tripod.

(The bottom line is that 6 to 5mm aperture size on ALL formats (with 'normal' lens as described above) with have the same depth of field.)

My experience is that every focal length of lens will have a like depth of acceptable focus, regardless of the format it is designed for.

In practice it means that if I shoot a motorcycle, as I did yesterday, with a 200 mm lens on a 35mm camera. Then I use a 215mm lens on a 4x5 camera to shoot the same motorcycle I should expect to find that both camera set-ups will give nearly identical results.

Both cameras were alongside each other on their respective tripods when their shutters were fired.

The prints were done on 8x10 paper with the motorcycle at the same image size. What was most interesting is that the depth of field was virtually identical on the prints.

I also put my 180mm lens on the 35mm camera and took a frame without moving the camera. The print from the 180mm neg was enlarged to the same motorcycle image size on 8x10 paper.

When these three enlargements are laid side by side on a table and inspected carefully for depth of field, the 180 has the most, followed by the 200 then the 215. Mind you this is a close thing, but it is detectable.

The aperture used in all cases was f/16 as it was the only one that all three lenses shared which should have given a more or less equalisation of the three lenses.

Mick.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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As I see it, any photo with any camera and any lens at any aperture even at fairly high shutter speeds (with the possible exception of electronic flash photos) will be sharper with a tripod than without, but some images just can't be made with a tripod and critical sharpness is not always the most important thing, so for images where the tripod will get in the way, one should handhold.

I work handheld with my Linhof Tech V 4x5" quite often, and with a 5x7" Press Graflex occasionally as well.
 

John Kasaian

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IMHO I can get very sharp images handheld with a Gowland 8x10 at f/9 and 1/250th, even in a vibrating airplane. Are they identical to a tripod mounted shot? No. Does it matter? Not really-- the contact prints "sing" though. YMMV
 

scootermm

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for no other reason than my own understanding ...

what are you actually trying to say in the original post? (maybe a one sentenc version)

I read that whole thing and am at a complete and utter loss. I felt like I was reading something that was supposed to be educational (from the verbage and "tone" that seemed to be presented), but dont really feel like I got whatever it is you were attempting to educate us on.
 
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ic-racer

ic-racer

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for no other reason than my own understanding ...

what are you actually trying to say in the original post? (maybe a one sentenc version)

I read that whole thing and am at a complete and utter loss. I felt like I was reading something that was supposed to be educational (from the verbage and "tone" that seemed to be presented), but dont really feel like I got whatever it is you were attempting to educate us on.

I think everything I wrote was common knowledge. The post just describes my thought process when I pick up a camera with X format and I want to know which f-stop to use and which shutter speed to use. If it is distorted and does not make sense, well...thats just the way I think.....
 

Ole

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...
Since you may have made this camera out of steel and it 'weighs a ton' it you may be able to hand hold it at 1/30 of a second with i.e. 200 or 400 film in bright daylight. Of course if you tried to make it "as light as possible" it may not be usable.

I can agree with that - the 5x7" Technika I was holding when my wife took the picture I'm using as an avatar weighs about 8kg with the 300mm f:4.5 lens. Heavy enough to be stable...
 

Nick Zentena

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A heavy camera is easier to keep still if you can hold it. Sooner or later muscle fatigue kicks in. Then you start shaking.

More important then sheer weight is balance. My F4 and my ETRSI are fairly similar in weight. But the F4 is much better balanced for hand holding. The ETRSI is too light in the back end. Most view cameras are going to have the same sort of balance issues with longer lenses. A press camera with an 135mm is fairly easy to hand hold. The same camera with a heavy 300mm is going to dip at the front.

For my bigger cameras I can't think of the times I really care about the shutter speed. I'm personally stuck in aperture mode. Find the F/stop that gives the results I need and let the shutter fall where it may.

OTOH with smaller cameras I might be doing something that shutter speed matters.

Of course could just stick one big honking flash on any camera and shoot that way.
 

photobum

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If it's standing still use a tripod and L/F. If it's moving like a football game or boxing match hand hold a 35mm.

I like the digital experts that hold their image machines out at arms length and tell me that their 10 megapixies will provide more resolution than my 4x5 on a pod.
 

jstraw

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If I wanted to hand hold a 4x5, I'd use a 4x5 that was designed to be operated while being held in the hands, not one that was designed to be operated while mounted on a tripod. How well one can hand hold one or the other is likely to be affected by whether or not you're struggling. My speed graphic (just one example) was designed so that it could be used while being hand held. My field camera wasn't.
 

Ian Grant

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A little thought is needed before shooting 5x4 hand held particularly if you're previously used to using a tripod all the time.

You loose control of the sharpness, speed, depth of field equilibrium and have to compromise depth of field for faster shutters speed to obtain sharp hand held images, perhaps also using a faster film than you might normally prefer.

If you shoot landscapes “hand held” is a very different way of working, and more exacting so you need to learn quickly from your early mistakes.

Personally I prefer to always use a tripod, but recently I've been shooting LF where tripods are not permitted, and professional photography needs a permit. Hand held 5x4 however is fine but takes a little getting used to, particularly to get good balanced negs with full depth of field and sharpness.

Ian
 

John Kasaian

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In general, the faster the shutter speed the better & focus on infinity works for me. A fast lens and fast film helps as does bracing against a solid immovable object if one is at hand.
 

resummerfield

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If I want to hand hold a camera I want results Identical to the tripod.......
With the exception of strobe lighting in a dim room, when I compare shots I've taken with and without a tripod, I have NEVER been able to duplicate the results obtained with a tripod. That applies to any camera format, size or weight.
 

Paul Howell

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I think there a lot of factors that need to be taken into account, not just size or weight. Type of shutter, shape of the camera, and how long the lens is all have an impact on hand held vs use of a tripod. I get better shots when I use my Crown leaf shutter rather than with my Speed focal plane shutter due to the extra vibration in the focal plane shutter, if I use a 210 or 300 I need a shutter speed of 1/400. I can hand hold my 2/14 TLR down to a 30th while my 2 1/4 SLR I try to keep shutter at 125th due to mirror slap, with the grip I can hand hold my 6X9 press camera down to 30th with a normal lens but the 150mm can be dicy at any thing lower than 1/250th. As a former PJ I will 90% of the time give the nod to shutter speed over F stop.
 

Taurus 8

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A trick I was told early on in the game was to breathe out when taking a picture. If you breathe in you'll have a tendency to move the camera. An old hunter's trick when shooting I understand.

I once had the fortune of a good rock to wedge my camera in when taking a photo of a squirrel. Results were amazingly sharp - people thought I'd staged it in a studio...just dumb luck that a rock was more or less level to where I wanted to shoot, truth be told...one of those happy accidents.
______________
John
 

herb

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Most has been said already, but as a pistol shooter, heavy is better than light, grips are all important, breathing is important, and trigger pull should be such that you have no idea when it will fire.

apply that to your handheld and you will get the best results.
 
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I don't know if it was mentioned (might have missed a post), but I recall an interesting picture of Roger Hicks. He had a view camera on his shoulder. I think the idea was this was steadier than having it hand held. While it would be a balancing act, if one was careful the shoulder firing method might work quite well.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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jolefler

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Personally I prefer to always use a tripod, but recently I've been shooting LF where tripods are not permitted, and professional photography needs a permit. Hand held 5x4 however is fine but takes a little getting used to, particularly to get good balanced negs with full depth of field and sharpness.

Ian


Just a couple of related questions for Ian, or those who know...are monopods exempt from the tripod rule in those areas? One of those sure helps me & my Speed Graphic! Are you hassled shooting LF because it looks so commercial/pro?
 

Ian Grant

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Just a couple of related questions for Ian, or those who know...are monopods exempt from the tripod rule in those areas? One of those sure helps me & my Speed Graphic! Are you hassled shooting LF because it looks so commercial/pro?

Interesting question, actually on ocassions it's possible to use a small tripod at quiet locations, no one asks or notices if it is carried in a case, I've not thought about using a monopod but I guess it's a possibility. I should add that the light is nearly always excellent at the sites I'm visiting and even with 100 ISO film I rarely shoot at less than 100sec f16 or f22 even in the winter.

The issue of using a tripod is the implied professionalism, and you need a permit to shoot commercial work. With the onslaught of technology an old Large Format camera is no longer seen as a professional tool by the average person particulary in Europe and the Middle East.

So when I use the Crown Graphic hand held I'm more likely to be asked how old is the camera, and seen as an eccentric photographer. However a high end D SLR is seen as far more borderline, it's interesting how perceptions have changed. So I don't get hassled:smile:

Ian
 
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