Can someone help identify this can of Eastman Infrared 35mm?

[vjuliano]

I recently acquired this can of film, but I am having trouble finding any information on it. I have tried googling the various codes on the label, and the name but am not really finding anything. I am interested in some basic info about it. Box ASA, years of production, etc. I assume its black and white.
Any help is greatly appreciated
Thank you

 

[vjuliano]

Sorry about the gigantic image. This is my first post on this forum. I assumed it would do a thumbnail that would expand on click.

 

[MattKing]

Welcome to Photrio.
It is a wonderful image - on a laptop or desktop screen anyways - so no worry.
An SO number refers to a Special Order product, so there may not be a lot of public information out there.
I'm guessing a special order product for the military or forest industry.
KS-1870 refers to the type of perforations.

 

[glbeas]

You could try a clip test and see if the film has any life left. I would bet its similar to high speed infrared, try developing to those specs as a trial and see how far off you are.

 

[MattKing]

My real concern would be whether it is black and white or colour infrared.

 

[AgX]

Concerning the age, the can might be a hint.
Here our cine fellows might be helpful.

 

[cmacd123]

35mm Long Pitch film with normal "still camera type" perforations. 400ft on a core. (Sp 418 is not in any of my copies for Motion Picture film catalogs going back to 2014.

that style can has not been used for many years, the current version is grey or gold painted.

I suspect that you are completly on your own as far as determining if that is usable for any purpose, (other than as Leader)

 

[FredK]

vjuliano,

Have you tried contacting Kodak directly with this request? Try www.kodak.com/go/support . They might be able to help you out.

 

[AgX]

I guess the "special order" only refers to those 400feet.

 

[cmacd123]

I guess the "special order" only refers to those 400feet.

Kodak often used to have SO numbers which were for a given client, Like making a batch of Movie Negative on Polyester base for a high speed camera, or some other application. their was generaly a hefty minimum order required of course. they would mark the package SO-345 or whatever, and sometimes if there was demand, the product/base/package size might migrate to being a regualr item.

I have one catalogue from 2016, where they had SO-296 as a roll of 65mmX 1000ft ISO 500 camera test film. for 254.10 while an actual roll of that size would sell for $1509.27 Presumably that was off spec film but useful for fine tuning an IMAX or somthing.

 

[AgX]

But from your definition SO always meant a special coating. I am not sure on that.

 

[cmacd123]

But from your definition SO always meant a special coating. I am not sure on that.

Special Order - Might be a regular coating in a new format, like Giant length 65mm loads for IMAX. almost like Kodak MP division answer to the Ilford Large format special runs. But not publicized. The example i dug up above was not a special coating.

 

[AgX]

That is why i guessed on the 400feet. I do not know if infrared film back then was offered by the cine department. If not and only as still films then a 400feet roll already could be something extraordinary, only to be got on special order for a certain lot.

 

[cmacd123]

That is why i guessed on the 400feet. I do not know if infrared film back then was offered by the cine department. If not and only as still films then a 400feet roll already could be something extraordinary, only to be got on special order for a certain lot.

also this is "long" perf. 1870. Movie Camera film at least in North America was almost always 1866. (BH perforations were used (still are) in North america, although the soviet block used KS. So this is NOT normal Movie film. NOW the Military got what they wanted and were willing to pay for, and scientific users might also want it. The Lable on the can does not show a NATO/FSN stock number so it might not have been a military purchase.

 

[AgX]

"KS" because of the strength of the hole, benefitial in some types of high-speed camera. And "long pitch" likely just as the combo KS/long already was applied in cinematography and thus the punching as such would be standard with standard tools.

 

[Kino]

"SO" was used as well when standard emulsions were coated onto Estar/Polyester base, but not elusively.

It drove us CRAZY when Kodak started offering standard 5234/5366/5302 in Estar, because they used unrelated SO numbers like 443 and so on. When they simply changed the leading 5 to a 2, i.e., 5302 became 2302, we could regain our sanity.

Also, long pitch KS stocks were typically used for contact printing, but could also be used in some high speed cameras, as Agx says...

 

[cmacd123]

Some of these ideas go back to the 1920s and 30s.

the basic contact printer uses the film going around a big sprocket, Original on the inside and and new copy on the outside, with the light source coming through the sproket. SO the original has to be just a touch shorter than the copy of eventually you will get a point where they slip against each other.

at the time this method was designed, the original would have been on Nitrate film which does shrink in processing, so they did not have any problems. Once the better safety films came out, they did not shrink as much in processing and so the negative started to have a shorter pitch, (1866) and that also applies to 16mm. Print film still uses the 1870 pitch

now the perforation shape, Edison likly started with round holes, but the registration to get sharp prints resulted in the Bell and Howell Perforation. this worked well, BUT where the flat edges meet the curved part theis is a sharp corner, which is where stress is concentrated and the perfs can tear starting from the corners. After several tries, one shape that was proposed for all uses was the Kodak Standard pref that we are used to for still film. the standards bodies got together and the idea was rejected for movie camera negatives, BUT the soviet union liked it and made it their GOST standard. Thus soviet Movie cameras used Kodak Standard perforations.

the Europeans often just call the BH1866 perfs "Negative" and the KS 1870 Perfs "Positive"

Now High speed cameras at least in 16mm were almost always made to use LONG pitch and come with instructions to only use fresh film. any difference would likly cause a jam in a camera that goes through 400 ft if film in far less than a minute.

as I say, it is a bit arcane, another example of we do it that way because that is the way it has always been done. and if this post is confusing, please skip over it.

 

[Kino]

Charles, FIAF (International Federation of Film Archives) has just updated their go-to book based on Harold Brown's (BFI) book on early physical characteristics of film and I'm looking to get a copy.

https://www.fiafnet.org/pages/Publications/Physical-Characteristics-New-Edition.html

"Characteristics of Early Films as Aids to Identification, an updated version and a continuation of his 1967 lecture. This publication has long been archivists' trusted companion, constituting a concentrated encyclopedia on all the information that can be discovered or verified through aspects of the fi lm other than the actual projected image – such as perforation shapes; embossed and punched marks; stock manufacturers' and producers' edge marks; frame characteristics; title styles; and production serial numbers. It also included essays on key individual production companies of the silent era".

But between us, we could probably give it a run for it's money!

Sorry everyone! Back to the regular programming!

 

[cmacd123]

Charles, FIAF (International Federation of Film Archives) has just updated their go-to book based on Harold Brown's (BFI) book on early physical characteristics of film and I'm looking to get a copy.!

You realize that you just got me to Give ABE books another 75 dollars US.

 

[Kino]

You realize that you just got me to Give ABE books another 75 dollars US.

Here's an image of a film going through our lab right now:



1906 Pathe Stencil Color Print
"Mephisto's Son", Pathe
Charles-Lucien Lépine, Director

Profuse apologies for hijacking this thread...

 

[markjwyatt]

A lot of the SO's are aerial film:
http://www.taphilo.com/Photo/kodakfilmnumxref.shtml


SO-023 AerochromeRA Dupe Film
SO-050 Tri-X Aerecon, became type 2403
SO-051 Aereconequivilent to 2405
SO-060 Similar to SO-134, increased IR response relative to 2443, thin base, ASA 40, ~1/300 @ f/5/6, ~1990
SO-111
SO-117 Kodak, natural color positive, Ektachrome SO-117, ASA 400, standard base
SO-118 Aerial Ektachrome R Print Film
SO-121 Kodak Ektachrome 64, Aerial Color on an Estar Thin Base.
SO-122 Aerial Duplicating (ESTAR Thin Base) B/W
SO-122 Black and White Aerial Duplicating Film, Estar Thin Base, (2.5 mil = 0.064mm), V641 chem., ~1969 V641
SO-130 Former name for 3400, Pan-X Aerial
SO-131 High Definition Aerochrome on Estar Thin Base, EA-5 processed, ~ 1982 EA-5
SO-132 Former name for 3404, Pan-X Aerial B/W
SO-134 AEROCHROME infrared NP (ESTAR Base) EA-5
SO-134 High Altitude 2443 (Aerochrome II type) 4mil base, increased IR sensitivity for higher altitudes, ~1990 EA-5
SO-136 Special Panatomic-X Aerial, anti-halation backed B/W
SO-140 Kodak Ultratec UGF-7 Film, 50 sheets 24 x 30, ~ 1996
SO-154 AerochromeEF Film, Estar thin base, process EA-5, ~1971
SO-163 Electron Image B/w
SO-168 Kodak Ektachrome EF Film on thin Estar Base, Daylight, ME-4 process, 35 and 70mm, same as 5241 on 4mil Estar base. ~ 1972
SO-170 Plus-X Aerographic, replaced by 2402 B/W
SO-180 Kodak Ektachrome Infra-Red
SO-187 High Resolution Aerial Duplicating (ESTAR Base) B/w
SO-187 Aerial Duplicating Film, Black and White, 7mil base B/W
SO-188 Kodak Graphic Data Microfilm, Estar Base, SP827, ~ 1996
SO-192 High Resolution Aerial Duplicating (ESTAR Base) B/w
SO-192 High Resolution Aerial Duplicating Film SP862, B & W, 4mil Estar base. 6.6in. X 500ft.; SP939 is 5in x 500ft, ~ 1996 B/W
SO-199 Negative Color C-41
SO-200 Color Negative C-41
SO-200 Kodak negative Color Film SP477, 70mm x 100 feet; SP512, 70mm x 400ft, ~ 1996
SO-206 Kodak Special Aerial Negative Film
SO-217 Kodak Ektachrome with haze filter
SO-219 Kodak Direct Electron Recording Film, SP884L, 5" x 200', ~ 1996
SO-226 Kodak Special Fine Grain Aerial, anti-halation backed.
SO-239 Kodak Direct Duplicating Aerial, Estar, V641 chem.B1~ 1969
SO-242 Kodak hi resolution color-process ME-4 or EA-5, Estar thin base, slow speed, ~ 1971
SO-243 Fine Grain Aerial Duplicating (ESTAR Thick Base) B/w
SO-243 Fine Grain Aerial Duplicating film 2430, Estar thick base, 25 sheets 24 x 30, ~ 1996
SO-243 Fine Grain Aerial Duplicating film
SO-243 Kodak Special High Definition Aerial Film
SO-253 High Speed Holographic (ESTAR Base) B/w
SO-253 Kodak 70mm holographic film, Estar. Used for crystal growth exp. on STS-42 in 1992. ~1985 - 1995.
SO-255 Kodak Aerial film on Estar ultra-thin base. EA-5, Same emulsion as SO-242, ~ 1971 EA-5
SO-26
SO-271 Aerial Color duplicating film, High gamma, process EA-5. EA-5
SO-277 Low Contrast Fine Grain Aerial Duplicating (ESTAR Thick Base) B/w
SO-277 Aerial Color duplicating film, Low contrst, Estar thick base, SP961, process EA-5, ~1996 EA-5
SO-279 VERICOLOR Slide C-41
SO-28
SO-289 Kodak Multispectral Infrared Aerial, Estar-AH base, Versamat 885 chemistry, ~1975 V885
SO-30
SO-339 Professional B/W Duplicating B/w
SO-339 Kodak Professional Black and White Duplicating Film, Sheet, ~ 1996 B/W
SO-355 Low Contrast Fine Grain AEROGRAPHIC Duplicating (ESTAR Base) B/w
SO-355 Low Contrast Fine Grain Aerographic Dupe Film SP862, Estar, 6.6in x 500', V641 chem., ~ 1971 V641
SO-356 High definition Ektachrome, EA-5, Estar, ~ 1971 EA-5
SO-358 AerocolorHS, high speed color negative for low altitude aerial, ASA 160, ~.001 sec. @ f/5.6, ~1999
SO-359 AerochromeHS, 4mil base, E6 E-6
SO-360 EktachromeDuplicating Film (Estar), EA-5, ~ 1971 EA-5
SO-366 EXTACHROME SE Duplicating, SO-W E-6
SO-366 Kodak Ektachrome SE Duplicating Film for E6 to E6, ~ 1987 E-6
SO-368 Kodak Ektachrome equivalent to 2448 Kodak Aerochrome, thin base, fine grain, high resolution E-6
SO-380 Former name for 3404, Pan-X Aerial B/W
SO-388 Kodak Ultratec UGF Film SO-388, 50 sheets, 24 x 30, ~ 1996
SO-390 Plus-X Aerial film, replaced by 2402 B/W
SO-397 EktachromeEF Aerographic film, Estar Base, ~1982 E-6
SO-397 EktachromeEF Aerographic, Estar base, EA-5 processed, ~ 1971 EA-5
SO-408 Kodak X-omat C duplicating film, ~1996
SO-442 SP957 Kodak Aerial II Recording Film, ~ 1996
SO-442 SP957 Kodak Aerial Type II Recording Film (Estar), SO-442 SP952, 9.5in x 250ft, ~ 1996
SO-483 Kodak Autopositive L film, estar thick base, SP425, 35mm x 100ft, ~1996
SO-485 AerochromeDuplicating Film EA-5?
SO-489 Kodak Ektachrome, High Speed, ASA 400
SO-921 EktachemDT slides (HB), ~ 1996
SO-924 EktachemDT slides (THEO), ~ 1996
SO-928 EktachemDT slides (TBIL), 25 slides, ~ 1996
SO-940 EktachemDT slides, clinical chemistry, (CL-), ~ 1996
SO-941 EktachemDT slides, clinical chemistry, (K+), ~ 1996
SO-947 EktachemDT slides (AMYL), 25 slides, ~ 1996
SO-967 EktachemDT slides (GGT)

 

[cmacd123]

And just like the Four digit film numbers, those SO numbers get reused.

 

[vjuliano]

So I got a bit lost in the conversation about perforations. Will this work in a standard 35mm camera?

 

[AgX]

In a still camera any perforation will work. In the long past film manufactures even sold films with either KS or BH perforation/pitch.

Today for still film conversions typically the KS perforation is employed.

But Filmotec offer some of their cine-films meanwhile also as short rolls for still photography use. These rolls have the BS perforation as far as I have seen. The same for Cinestill.

 

[Danner]

So I got a bit lost in the conversation about perforations. Will this work in a standard 35mm camera?

From Wikipedia:

The KS1870 perforation, or KS perforation with a pitch of 0.1870", is the modern standard for release prints as well as for 135 still camera film.