Can RA4 paper be fogged by drying spray paint?

anikin · Nov 21, 2012

I have just made a dispenser for photo paper rolls. I spray painted it inside with a can of flat black paint. As a last step before loading a $1000 roll of FujiFlex, I had a silly idea to test the dispenser for light leaks. So I folded a sheet of 20x24 CA paper into a cylinder and put it into the dispenser. I left it there for two days. This evening I processed the sheet of paper and was horrified to discover that the lower left corner of the paper is nearly black with dark red tinge. I suspect this corner was sitting on the bottom of the box towards the back. Anyway, I find it rather incredible that the corner is nearly absolutely black while the rest of the sheet is perfectly while. Somehow I don't think that there should be such strong light leaks at the bottom towards the back of the dispenser. My suspicion is that it's the vapors from not completely dried paint fogged the paper that was touching the bottom. Is that possible, or is it more likely that it's still a light leak?

P.S. Sorry for crappy iPad photos.

polyglot · Nov 21, 2012

If it were vapours, the fogging should be more diffuse. Have you tried airing it out for a couple days then re-testing?

Bob-D659 · Nov 21, 2012

I would bake that box for a while, if you spray painted wood, it's going to outgas for weeks as the solvents in the paint soaked into the wood. I'd say leave it out in the sun for a week, but it's the wrong time of the year in Oregon. I guess a small fan heater will help.

Black with redish tint and edges sure sounds like a light leak, it really doesn't take much light either if it sat for a week in a room. 2 min in a beseler drum with the light reflecting thru the fill spout from the a 2x40 watt fixture on the ceiling leaves a nice red spot.

BTW black foam neoprene weather stripping helps keep the light out, it works very well on the black plastic commercial paper safes.

AgX · Nov 21, 2012

One could also use a hot air gun.

Arctic amateur · Nov 21, 2012

Do the test again, but with the box in total darkness. Write on the paper which way you put it in. If the problem goes away, the box probably has a light leak.

anikin · Nov 21, 2012

Oh, never mind. I just figured it out with a little bit of detective work. There are crease marks on the paper right on the boundary of the fogged part. It looks like the corner of the paper was pinched by the door as it was closing. This means that the light trap IS working, and everything is fine! I'm ready to use the dispenser!!!!
That's the problem with loading and unloading the paper in complete darkness - you have no idea what is going on.

DREW WILEY · Nov 21, 2012

I'd still let it outgas for a number of weeks. Those MEK fumes take a long time to dissipate. And even
if the paper doesn't get fogged, it might be seriously compromised in terms of dye permanence.

anikin · Nov 21, 2012

Good idea Drew! I was planning to put another coat of paint on it this week. And I will be traveling for next couple of weeks, so it will come out just perfect!

DREW WILEY · Nov 21, 2012

Better safe than sorry. I was hoping to work on my own trimmer a bit more during this particular holiday so I can soon start calibrating my own 40-inch roll of Supergloss. I want to see how the
material works with my interneg experiments with chromes, as well as from conventional masked negs.

anikin · Nov 21, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
Better safe than sorry.

You can say that again. I tried to cut a piece from the roll in our bathroom so that I can test it. Boy was I in for a surprise! The roll is surprisingly heavy and unwieldy. And I simply could not cut it with my handheld olfa rotary trimmer, so I had to use the scissors and do an ugly cut through. I was all covered in sweat by the time I was done - it felt like wrestling a bear in the dark.
That's the reason I started building this dispenser. The days of cut sheet paper are quickly passing, so we need to adapt.

I'm thinking about using this power trimmer to cut the paper when I pull it from the dispenser:

http://www.sears.com/skil-3.6v-li-ion-power-cutter/p-00912680000P?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3

The idea is to measure the needed length and then trim it by the edge of the dispenser. Don't know yet how well it will work, but that's the idea. Can you share what you are using?

DREW WILEY · Nov 21, 2012

I'd be worried about visible sparks from anything power operated, including battery tools. I hoping to
get up to a friend's big lab storage locker to see what he's got leftover in roll trimmer equip. He did
paper up to 60-inch wide. The wt of the 40" roll makes me wish I gotten 30" wide instead, but the
bigger roll will be more cost effective if I need to get 20X24 or 20X30 sheets cut as well as 30X40.
I have a big formica-covered cutting table with threaded inserts at key positions, so I can precisely
place a stainless length stop for each dimension. There's a 48 inch dual-bar Rotatrim cutter at the
business end, which I just have to modify a bit moer for the feed rollers below. Then the cut sizes
go into big paper safes. I think I'll put the master roll itself back into a big tube of black ABS irrigation
pipe with caps. Don't plan on making full size prints until Spring anyway. Got lots of fancy calibaration work to do in the meantime, plus lots of masking work on the original LF negs.

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2012

If the paint smells like ammonia, then yes there is a chance for fog.

PE

Bob Carnie · Nov 21, 2012

I have cut prints from many boxes of 50 inch and 30 inch rolls.. other than a dispenser that cuts perfect cuts, here is how we do it. I SUSPECT YOU ARE TALKING MURALS HERE AND NOT SMALL PRINTS.

lay the box on the floor. determine how much paper you need to cut with a tape measure, put the end of the tape on your paper box and measure on your body the length you
need. Remember the point where ie your belly button, your neck , your nipples..

then pull the paper emulsion towards you up to the point on your body, gently roll the paper back over the lip and cut along the edge of the box with a good olfa knife.
close the box and put the paper on the wall or in your easel.

this is a very tried and true method of cutting rolls and in many shops the only way the technicians will work. a rotary trimmer with flat surface is not an option for murals that I would recommend with this cutting from the box so simple and efficient.

remember I am talking murals here and not a small prints.

DREW WILEY · Nov 21, 2012

Gosh that sounds crude, Bob. We're talking about 40" widths of polyester-based sheet, which is prone to crinkling. Maybe Supergloss is a little easier to handle than Ciba, but I'd dread ever working
with Ciba that way. The floor ????????????????? Think I'll opt for Plan B. But as far as the local pro
labs go, they used automated dispensers/cutters that originally cost in the 16-20K range apiece.
For true mural sized fiber-based B&W rolls, they had vertical roll holders immediately adjacent to the
vertical magnetic wall easels, then just pull the roll out to a stop and cut it off with an Olfa or bar
trimmer. I prefer a vac easel, and have big built in masking bars for visible print borders. The paper
is transferred from the table to the horizontal easil on a big sled, so that nothing gets scratched or
crinkled. I went vertical. Had my horizontal enlgr days. But the damn thing is so tall that I have to
load the neg carrier using a rolling warehouse ladder, the kind with steel stairs. But it works well
for me. Are we all nuts or what? I'll admit that I am.

Bob Carnie · Nov 21, 2012

Drew.
without bragging , over 1000 rolls this method since 1978 with RA4 , Cibachrome, Black White Clean floor it works like magic .. I have been printing Cibas since 1983 and have made a few in my day.

Sounds crude works like magic

DREW WILEY said:
Gosh that sounds crude, Bob. We're talking about 40" widths of polyester-based sheet, which is prone to crinkling. Maybe Supergloss is a little easier to handle than Ciba, but I'd dread ever working
with Ciba that way. The floor ????????????????? Think I'll opt for Plan B. But as far as the local pro
labs go, they used automated dispensers/cutters that originally cost in the 16-20K range apiece.
For true mural sized fiber-based B&W rolls, they had vertical roll holders immediately adjacent to the
vertical magnetic wall easels, then just pull the roll out to a stop and cut it off with an Olfa or bar
trimmer. I prefer a vac easel, and have big built in masking bars for visible print borders. The paper
is transferred from the table to the horizontal easil on a big sled, so that nothing gets scratched or
crinkled. I went vertical. Had my horizontal enlgr days. But the damn thing is so tall that I have to
load the neg carrier using a rolling warehouse ladder, the kind with steel stairs. But it works well
for me. Are we all nuts or what? I'll admit that I am.

Bob Carnie · Nov 21, 2012

I have worked with the units on the wall, I have worked with the econorolls IMO the best, and cut from the box. The loading from the wall was the least effective and in the labs I worked at they had them but none of the printers used them.... the econorolls held two rolls and dropped the exact cut into a paper safe below the rolls. Took up little space and you could really rock through a roll of paper on a large job.

A good day one could cut through five boxes of paper with little wastage, with the econoroll , no wastage.

Would not want to do those volumnes these days, out of shape

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2012

We pretty much used Bob's method at Kodak. Remember that if your lab is clean, this method will present no problem at all. Just remember to avoid kinks. They cause fog. And, don't touch the emulsion side. We used cotton gloves.

PE

DREW WILEY · Nov 21, 2012

I'd don't think we're talking about even the same planet here. But it's all academic, since my personal
lab is pretty packed and I don't even have that kind of surplus floor space to desecrate expensive
paper on anyway. And I need a variety of sizes from the same master roll. Previously Fujiflex was avail in cut sheets right up to 30X40. That would be nice to have again. The cutters I've seen were connected right to the easel, fed and sized right onto it automatically. Don't think I can get a free one of those bigger than 27 inch however. I want the 40X60 option still open, and I can do that on my present trimmer setup. I've already used it for regular C-paper in total darkness.

frotog · Nov 22, 2012

Without an automatic roll paper dispenser, cutting the paper the way carnie describes is the way that every lab tech does it. It is a simple, straight forward method that saves space as the operator is dispensing the paper vertically and then rolling it towards the lip of the box which will serve as an anvil for your cut (use some sort of straight edge, x-acto or olma). You'd have to be a complete beginner or a klutz to crimp the paper using this method.

Bob Carnie · Nov 22, 2012

I did cut my finger once, and you do have to make sure the lip does not get sliced or you need to change bottom boxes, which if you do enough of this type of work there will be plenty of spare boxes.

The weight of the roll holds your pull length.

frotog said:
Without an automatic roll paper dispenser, cutting the paper the way carnie describes is the way that every lab tech does it. It is a simple, straight forward method that saves space as the operator is dispensing the paper vertically and then rolling it towards the lip of the box which will serve as an anvil for your cut (use some sort of straight edge, x-acto or olma). You'd have to be a complete beginner or a klutz to crimp the paper using this method.

MattKing · Nov 22, 2012

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the method described by Bob require two people?

frotog · Nov 22, 2012

No. Hold the roll with one hand, cut with the other.

Bob Carnie · Nov 22, 2012

youtake the paper out of the protective sleeve, and pull the paper up to the spot , gently let the role roll back and cut over the lip of the box to create
your second straight edge... two people would be problematic.

MattKing said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the method described by Bob require two people?

frotog · Nov 22, 2012

Once you've determined that the box is light tight, no need for the inner bag...will save you considerable time and hassle, especially if you're feeling out of shape and don't like lifting stuff more than you have to.

Bob Carnie · Nov 22, 2012

Yes forgot to mention that, only need the bag at the end of the day .

frotog said:
Once you've determined that the box is light tight, no need for the inner bag...will save you considerable time and hassle, especially if you're feeling out of shape and don't like lifting stuff more than you have to.

Can RA4 paper be fogged by drying spray paint?

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