Can I run fix with hardener in a roller transport machine?

I'm currently running ilford's 2150xl chemistry in a little fujimoto cp-32. The set-up works great; short processing times, the chemistry lasts a long time and needs no replenishment. There's just one problem - the ilford 2150 fix is without hardener. The prints pick up scratches very easily. Any suggestions?

Use developer systems cleaner and fixer systems cleaner to remove the dirt and debris from the rollers. I would venture that you have never used systems cleaner to clean your processor. It may take more than one cleaning to remove the build up of dirt.

fujimoto b&w experinces

I fly a cp31 with the w/d module. When I do b&w I usually leave the speed at 45' per bath, ala ra-4, and then just shut the heaters off. This is a modification that I did while troubleshooting the dead (now replaced) first tank digital thermostat. I find that the heat of the pumps etc seems to take the baths to about 24C. I run bath 1 as water to open up the pores in the emulsion.

Tank 2 gets the developer. I use a d-72/agfa100/dektol developer at 1:2 - these developers don't seem to fog, and develop paper fully to max density in 45' at 24C. They are not resistant to aerial oxidization, howerver, so I toss them after every evenings printing session.

Tank 3 I fill with a rapid alkaline fix, like Photo Engineers Superfix, or TF3 or TF4. At 24C they fix paper very quickly, and I have not had problems with scratching.

Are your rollers all clean?. I drain my unit every night, store the chems in jugs under the machine, and then rinse everything in a fill of water though the machine. All rollers get wiped with a wet j-cloth, to get rid of the slime that can build up. When I got my unit second hand it was filthy, and took many scrubs to get clean. Dlute toilet bown cleaner works wonders. That is why I am so up on rinsing and wiping.

I usually actually use the cp-31 for b&w only on a big run, like a postcard exchange. Most of the time when I do this I print fibre. If you pre-soak the fibre for like 20 seconds in a tray, it can then be stuck to waste sheets of RC that hang around as clean out sheets etc, and the sandwich be fed into the machine. I pull the sanwich apart after the fix and hand wash the FB because the W/D module doesn't work for FB paper.

Thanks for your reply Mike. The prints from my set-up are not coming out of the machine with scratches, it's just that they're very susceptible to scratching once they're dry. The nice thing about the ilford chem. is running the processor at its max. speed. I also like the large capacity and tank life of this chem; approx. 100-120 8x10's per fresh tank with a tank life of about one week. At the end of the session I pull the racks and put cellophane over the baths. I'm running the chem. at 33 degrees c. and the third tank is being used as a water wash. I do not have a wash dry unit on this setup so the prints go directly into an archival washer for 20'. Perhaps I could run some sort of hardening agent in the third bath? Or perhaps I could try mixing up some of this super fix...IDK....is there a hardener for the super fix?

I don't know if it's quite the same but in the graphic arts we have run hardener in our fixer for the longest time with no ill affects to the film. However, your wash water will not last as long due to biological organisms (sorry couldn't spell it!!).

Nowhere is the paper type mentioned. This is sometimes critical as some papers are far less hard than others or havae more gelatin than others. The softer papers or thicker papers scratch more easily both during and after processing. If they scratch in processing, then they may be scratched during development or before fixing, in which case a hardening fix does little good. A hardener fix is only good for after process scratches, and a hardener fix can be reversed in effect by having an alkaline wash water.

PE

I'm not acquainted with your machine, but the Kodak X-O-Mat x-ray processors run with hardening fixer all the time, and x-ray films have heavy emulsions, often coated on both sides.

There is no reason you cannot use a hardening fix in your processor.

Photo Engineer said:

Nowhere is the paper type mentioned. This is sometimes critical as some papers are far less hard than others or havae more gelatin than others. The softer papers or thicker papers scratch more easily both during and after processing. If they scratch in processing, then they may be scratched during development or before fixing, in which case a hardening fix does little good. A hardener fix is only good for after process scratches, and a hardener fix can be reversed in effect by having an alkaline wash water.

PE

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Ilford multigrade iv rc. Processed w/ trays using kodak rapid fixer w/ hardener has never given me any problems. But now I'm on the machine and I'm having to make hundreds of 8x10's. The prints are not picking up scratches during processing. The scratches are occurring afterwards. Initially I noticed that my squeegee was leaving behind deep scratches. Then I tried drying with paper towels - even worse. Gently brushing insignificant dust off the print before placing the print in a frame caused scratches! My guess is that ilford 2150 is an alkaline fix as the kit does include a stop bath. I'm afraid that if I were to follow PHOTOTONE's simple advice I'd be consistently exhausting my acid fix w/ hardener...so no, any old fix w/ hardener will not work.

I really like the ilford chem. as it is designed to run at high temperatures and for long runs without replenishment. Can I run some sort of hardening agent in the third bath which for now is just wash water?

Why not prepare a hardening bath for use after the paper exits the machine?

Claire Senft said:

Why not prepare a hardening bath for use after the paper exits the machine?

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Great idea Claire! What would you recommend?

Well, first off if the squegee roller were hanging up, it could scratch the paper right there. Paper towels contain abrasive materials. Never try to clean plastic lenses with a kleenex or paper towel! The abrasives do a job on them. Sounds like you have some abrasive dust in the air.

If you use TF-4, it is designed to work with or without a stop bath so that should not make a difference, but use of an alkaline fix precludes use of a hardener. Most other alkaline fixers cannot tolerate a stop bath. Here is an alkaline fixer, but it is slow.

Sodium Hypo pentahydrate 100 g/l
Sodium Sulfite 10 g/l
Sodium Sulfate 25 - 50 g/l (whatever will dissolve for you)
Formalin 37% 10 ml
pH 8.0 - 9.0

This cannot be used with an acidic stop! This will harden but will take a long time, and wash times will be longer.

A post wash hardener is 10 ml/l 37% formalin at pH 7.

A pre hardener is as follows:

Sodium Sulfate 100 g/l
formalin 37% 10 ml/l
pH 9

Treat for 2 minutes and then wash for 2 mins before the developer.

All of the prehardeners dilute the developer and change the paper characteristics, especially if there is an incorporated reducing agent.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Well, first off if the squegee roller were hanging up, it could scratch the paper right there.PE

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To make myself clear: The print does not show any signs of scratches from processing. As I've mentioned before, the print scratches very easily once it is dry. This has nothing to do with abrasive dust, etc. - the problem lies in the fact that the emulsion is extremely soft. So soft that gently brushing the print surface with a kinetronics brush results in scratches. I don't have this problem with rc prints fixed w/ kodak rapid fixer plus hardener. So I'm assuming that the problem lies in the fact that the ilford 2150 fix is a non-hardening alkali fix.

As I am not an avid mix-your-self person it seems as though the least complicated of your three suggestions is the formalin post wash hardener. Just a few questions before I attempt to mix up this bath...Are temp. and time critical? Can I run the formalin bath in the third bath of my machine or should I wash the print first? Oh yeah...what's the best way to adjust the pH of the bath?

PE,
I just found one of your earlier posts on Kodak formalin stabilizer baths for E-6. Is this a viable option after the final wash?

Well, the current E6 stabilzer has no formalin in it, nor does the C41 stabilizer. A film stabilzer has Photo Flo in it too, and that is not good for prints. They can become sticky or have gloss problems. The solutions I suggested in my previous post were designed for paper (FB or RC).

As for your problems, I understand it shows up when dry, but sometimes the surface is damaged when wet and this does not show up until dry and not swollen. That is the only reason I suggested the squegee.

Another thing you might try is a neutral solution of Zircotan (Zirconium Sulfate IIRC) at about 25 g/l, pH 7 as a post wash rinse followed by a short rinse. Zircotan is a specific surface hardener used to harden the surface of gelatins.

PE

Zircotan does not seem to be available to the general public. Zirconium Sulfate is very costly. OTOH, I found 37% formalin solution 500ml for $42 from Chemical-Supermarket.com. Formalin appears to be nasty stuff. Would the post-fix formalin bath work in the processor or would I be better off attempting this stage in a tray?

What if I were to use an alum hardener after a thorough washing of the prints and then another final wash?

With alum, you would have to use a pH 4.5 bath of alum in acetic acid. I would use 2% acetic acid, 25 g/l alum and then adjust the pH as needed with acetic acid. Wash, rinse for 1 min in the alum bath and then rinse again in running water for about 1 '. Check the print for stability though and formation of crystals on the surface.

However, I must point out that no one seems to be having this problem but you, so you and your process are the odd man out here I'm afraid.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

However, I must point out that no one seems to be having this problem but you, so you and your process are the odd man out here I'm afraid.

PE

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Understood. Small volume RT black and white processing does indeed place me in a minority. Nonetheless, it's not as though I'm using some especially arcane chemistry or paper here. And as I've mentioned before the prints are easily scratched ONCE THEY ARE DRY so it would seem that the only two variables that need to be addressed here are the paper type and the chemistry and not user error.

I was hoping to hear from some people using the 2150 chem. kit but evidently it's not so common. And while I appreciate the stir-it-up-yourself chemistry dimension to darkroom work I'm loath to experiment with it, preferring instead to spend that time making pictures.

I'll try giving a test print a thorough wash and then into a bath of Sprint rapid fixer w/ alum hardener at the dilution they recommend on the bottle.

frotog said:

To make myself clear: The print does not show any signs of scratches from processing. As I've mentioned before, the print scratches very easily once it is dry. This has nothing to do with abrasive dust, etc. - the problem lies in the fact that the emulsion is extremely soft. So soft that gently brushing the print surface with a kinetronics brush results in scratches. I don't have this problem with rc prints fixed w/ kodak rapid fixer plus hardener. So I'm assuming that the problem lies in the fact that the ilford 2150 fix is a non-hardening alkali fix.

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I have not read all the posts here, so don't pay much attention to what I have to say!

Something is amiss.

Just how soft is your dry emulsions?

"gently brushing the print surface with a kinetronics brush" leaves scraches?

I do not know what a "kinetronics brush" is... is an anti-static brush?

The one's I use are very soft and the only way they could scratch any film I have ever used is if I used them with force on damp film.

Have you tried refixing in a regular, acidic hardening fixer?

I think PE should know more about the use of hardeners, but the info I have seen indicates that , once the film is dry, little real protection against physical stress is given by typical hardeners; their main usefulness is to increase the melting point and decrease swell of the gelatin, so that they are much stronger when wet.

Put another way, I do not think even unhardened emulsion would scratch that bad if brushd gently at 20 deg.C

Is it very hot where you are? If so then maybe the problem is due to the fixer.

I am stuck on the fact that your film is scrached by a brush!
What happens if you press hard on the emulsion, say with your finger?

What is a a kinetronics brush for anyway?

Ray Rogers said:

I have not read all the posts here, so don't pay much attention to what I have to say!

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Good point.

Well, actually, some hardeners add what is called "case hardening" which adds a surface layer of extreme hardness to a gelatin coating when dry. Zircotan and Alum are two, but Alum is by far weaker than Zircotan.

However, Ray is right. Hardening is intended to raise the melting point of raw gelatin which is (surprise surprse) 68 deg F (20 deg C).

PE

frotog said:

Good point.

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Thank You!

Photo Engineer said:

However, Ray is right. Hardening is intended to raise the melting point of raw gelatin which is (surprise surprse) 68 deg F (20 deg C).

PE

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Oh, if I could only get my hands (gloved) on some Zircotan!

Now that I think of it perhaps the answer to my problem is hidden in Ray's post. The 2150xl chemistry is designed to run at 35 degrees c. dry to dry in 1'20" or approx. 20" in each of the three baths plus 20" under an infrared dryer. The fujimoto machine (main body only) runs three baths in 1'30" at its top speed - that's 50% slower than the ilford machine. At 35 degrees c. I noticed fogging so I brought the developer bath down to 33 c. and the fogging went away. At the end of a day's printing session I have noticed some whispy strings of slime floating around in the third tank (water wash at 33 c.). I'm now thinking that I'm running this chemistry too hot for its top speed. Perhaps I've been washing away a portion of the paper's gelatin coating which is resulting in dry prints that are easily scratched with normal handling?

frotog said:

Oh, if I could only get my hands (gloved) on some Zircotan!

Now that I think of it perhaps the answer to my problem is hidden in Ray's post. The 2150xl chemistry is designed to run at 35 degrees c. dry to dry in 1'20" or approx. 20" in each of the three baths plus 20" under an infrared dryer. The fujimoto machine (main body only) runs three baths in 1'30" at its top speed - that's 50% slower than the ilford machine. At 35 degrees c. I noticed fogging so I brought the developer bath down to 33 c. and the fogging went away. At the end of a day's printing session I have noticed some whispy strings of slime floating around in the third tank (water wash at 33 c.). I'm now thinking that I'm running this chemistry too hot for its top speed. Perhaps I've been washing away a portion of the paper's gelatin coating which is resulting in dry prints that are easily scratched with normal handling?

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Interesting...

Opens up another possibility as well... you might be re-coating the solublized gelatin onto the film (was it paper?) then drying it without the gelatin setting first.

Don't know off hand what properties that might give you, but probably nothing you desire.

???