Can I harden post-fix?

[Sparky]

So - the Fotospeed fixer that I THOUGHT was a hardening fixer turned out to be a NON-hardening fixer (sideline: HOW come it's nearly impossible to find hardening fixers these days... used to be the opposite - used to be nearly impossible to find NON-hardening fixers... are people using non-hardening fixers for film now??).

So anyway, I've fixed some negs - but I'd like to harden them without having to re-fix in a hardening fixer. What to do? Should I just get some formaldehyde (hardener) and dip 'em?

 

[reub2000]

What are you talking about? There are plenty of hardening fixers out there. Kodak Rapid Fixer comes with a second bottle of hardener. Ilford makes a hardener.

 

[removed account4]

from what i understand
it is not recommended to harden
film or prints anymore.

there are always some exceptions
(soft films from eastern europe ) ...

 

[Sparky]

What are you talking about? There are plenty of hardening fixers out there. Kodak Rapid Fixer comes with a second bottle of hardener. Ilford makes a hardener.

Yes - 'comes with'. I know it's a minor point - but they used to be all integral. My question is - "can I 'harden' separately?"

 

[Sparky]

REALLY? Seriously? Seems it used to be absolutely DE RIGEUR to do so. I know that it was highly recommended by AA (in his books) to not harden prints - and this was against the grain of common knowledge at them time. But it seems to make so much sense to harden film. Boy - guess I must not have attended class the day they told everyone that one....! Can you possibly point me to a reference?

from what i understand
it is not recommended to harden
film or prints anymore.

there are always some exceptions
(soft films from eastern europe ) ...

 

[Ryuji]

If you've already processed the film and dried it, there is no advantage to gain by hardening the film.

The effect of hardener used to be to protect the film from damage while being washed. Hardener has no influence over the mechanical strength of the gelatin coating once the material is dried. In other words, drying does more hardening of gelatin than chemical hardener.

 

[Sparky]

I see - what if my film is still sitting in water from last night waiting to take hardener? I guess enough fixer's probably diffused out of it by now to just give it another change or 2 of water and let dry. I have to get some photo-flo though...

If you've already processed the film and dried it, there is no advantage to gain by hardening the film.

The effect of hardener used to be to protect the film from damage while being washed. Hardener has no influence over the mechanical strength of the gelatin coating once the material is dried. In other words, drying does more hardening of gelatin than chemical hardener.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I am not a fan of hardeners, but in this thread are a couple of formaldehyde based recipes.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Ryuji]

I see - what if my film is still sitting in water from last night waiting to take hardener? I guess enough fixer's probably diffused out of it by now to just give it another change or 2 of water and let dry. I have to get some photo-flo though...

Again, if the film is washed and needs no further wet handling, there is no reason to use hardener.

Plus, most modern films (those made by Fujifilm, Ilford and Kodak) do not need hardener. They are already hardened very much by adding one or more of strong hardeners directly into the emulsion. Additional hardener used in processing stages is weaker and adds no significant hardening.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Regardless, in answer to your question, you can harden at any time. However, the hardening may or may not be useful or practical.

PE

 

[removed account4]

REALLY? Seriously? Seems it used to be absolutely DE RIGEUR to do so. I know that it was highly recommended by AA (in his books) to not harden prints - and this was against the grain of common knowledge at them time. But it seems to make so much sense to harden film. Boy - guess I must not have attended class the day they told everyone that one....! Can you possibly point me to a reference?

i haven't seen the writings myself, other than when others here have posted them (here)
from time to time --- supposedly, both kodak and ilford don't recommend
hardening their films.
i submit work to the habs program and in their
guidelines for large format photography it specifically says not to harden
anything. from what i understand, once hardener is in there,
it is rather hard to get a good archival wash ...

 

[Sparky]

Well - it looks like the evidence and conviction are overwhelming! I was always under the supposition that hardening was to protect them when DRY..! Live and learn!

 

[Sparky]

... and... THANKS everyone for your help! I really appreciate it.

 

[Ryuji]

Well - it looks like the evidence and conviction are overwhelming! I was always under the supposition that hardening was to protect them when DRY..! Live and learn!

That misconception seems to be very persistent in both the US and Japan, but it has nothing to do with the truth. Indeed, the temperature of the drying air has more influence on the mechanical property of the dried film than the use of hardener.