Can I go to bed now and wash tomorrow?

matti · Jun 23, 2006

Is there a way to postpone the washing of the prints until the next day? Like now, my kids and wife are asleep. I just had a great printing session, even my mother in law will like one of the prints I made. (As she said earlier today: "It's not that I want to look younger than I am, I just don't want to look older than I feel.")
Ok, as I don't have running water in the darkroom i put the prints in a bucket until the session is over and I can put them in my newly aquired big archive washer. But now I have to wait for one hour... A nice time to checkout the latest posts at APUG, of course, but I am a bit afraid the running water might wake up the family. So, what would happen if I washed the prints tomorrow instead? Will it destroy the paper?
I asked here before about washing and got some good advice on trying out alikaline fixers to cut down on washing times. I will do that (if I can find some ingrediences here in Sweden) but it won't really solve this problem completely. And I do really like my Ilford Multigrade FB and don't want to go back to RC...

/matti

david b · Jun 23, 2006

Give them a quick rinse, lay them out to dry and then head to bed. Then give them a proper wash tomorrow.

Sweet dreams.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 23, 2006

Once the residual fixer has dried, it becomes very hard, if not impossible, to remove it.

You can keep the prints in the water overnight, but if wet for several hours, some of the brighteners will wash out. You may not like the result. Using washing aid for 10 min, a final wash of 30 min should be sufficient. Alternatively, you can also use diffusion washing. It won't be much quicker, but uses less water. For the former method, not much water flow is needed. It shouldn't wake up the family.

Once washed, you can postpone the toning until the next day, but not the washing itself.

Petzi · Jun 23, 2006

Yes I agree, washing should be done immediately.

Jim Jones · Jun 23, 2006

Fifty years ago a photographer told me he used to print and develop quantities of school photos in the evening and dump them in a full bathtub. Next day, while he was at his regular job, his wife washed and dried them. It might be good enough for school photos, but I wouldn't recommend it for quality images on modern material. Emulsions can get awfully soft when soaked too long. Also, if a print isn't completely submerged, the demarcation line between wet and dry might become permanently visible.

david b · Jun 23, 2006

I guess I stand corrected. Thanks for setting me straight.

John Koehrer · Jun 23, 2006

David Vestal discovered that for his purposes an archival wash for him consisted of an overnight soak. This was confirmed by his own tests and a proper lab also.
Try it do the soak and try the ht2 test for residual hypo.

matti · Jun 24, 2006

Thank you all for the warnings. It sounds like some papers might work better than others but maybe it's too much of a risk anywy. If I can find a way to drain the archive washer into a well in the floor in the basement it might solve the problem in a better way.

BTW, they didn't wake up And the pictures came out fine, even though I must say I need to get a little bit more control over dry down darkening.

/matti

RalphLambrecht · Jun 24, 2006

Matti

The rule-of-thumb for dry-down is 1/12 stop (5%). Prepare the wet print to your liking and then reduce the exposure by 1/12 stop, When dry, it will match the darker, moist print.
However, don't confuse dry-down with using the wrong evaluation light in the darkroom. One gremlin is using bright, fluorescent lights in the darkroom to evaluate the wet prints, and then being disappointed when looking at the dry print under 'normal' lighting conditions. I use a 100W bulb at 2m to evaluate the print in the darkroom. If the print looks OK there, it will look fine outside of the darkroom too. Evaluation lighting should equal viewing lights. Having darkroom lights too bright will lead to disappointment later.

Petzi · Jun 24, 2006

The longer the paper has contact with any chemicals, the deeper they get into the fibre base. And the deeper they get, the longer you have to wash. There used to be an instruction by Ilford on how to wash archival FB prints within a few minutes with a minimal amount of water. It involved a 30 sec fix in a highly active fixer (Hypam 1+4), this had to be timed. Too long and the chemical would get deeper into the paper, too short and the print wouldn't be fixed properly. That's how I understood it at least. The fixer had to be fresh of course.

matti · Jun 24, 2006

Thank you Ralph, I havn't actually compensated for dry down at all. I just started reading your book and will use the f/stop table for this and other things the next session. And I must say this book looks like exactly what I have been looking for, finally ennough detail so I can really understand what is going on. (Being the neophyte I am, I suppose I will see the light at the third reading though ) I allso understand I need a much better evaluation light than today. Now, its just a 40w bulb in the ceiling...

/matti

George Collier · Jun 24, 2006

I have been told that long exposure (overnight) to water is hard on the emulsion of papers, and not recommended.

Peter Schrager · Jun 24, 2006

soaking

I've actually had the the emulsion slip off of some papers if kept in water overnight. Why risk all the hard work you just did?
Peter

unregistered · Jun 25, 2006

RalphLambrecht said:
Matti

The rule-of-thumb for dry-down is 1/12 stop (5%). Prepare the wet print to your liking and then reduce the exposure by 1/12 stop, When dry, it will match the darker, moist print.
However, don't confuse dry-down with using the wrong evaluation light in the darkroom. One gremlin is using bright, fluorescent lights in the darkroom to evaluate the wet prints, and then being disappointed when looking at the dry print under 'normal' lighting conditions. I use a 100W bulb at 2m to evaluate the print in the darkroom. If the print looks OK there, it will look fine outside of the darkroom too. Evaluation lighting should equal viewing lights. Having darkroom lights too bright will lead to disappointment later.

Depends on the paper. Some are only 4%, others 8%. You should do your own tests.

It doesn't matter what lights you use to view your wet print. As long as you have the ability to know what a print looks like under the situations it will be viewed or reproduced, you can make adjustments. It goes to my basic philosophy...learn how to see and your printing will be fine. I've always used a bank of 4-4foot daylight balanced tubes about 7 feet away and never had a problem, because I know how different situations will look on the prints and I pay attention.

Easy

unregistered · Jun 25, 2006

matti said:
Is there a way to postpone the washing of the prints until the next day? Like now, my kids and wife are asleep. I just had a great printing session, even my mother in law will like one of the prints I made. (As she said earlier today: "It's not that I want to look younger than I am, I just don't want to look older than I feel.")
Ok, as I don't have running water in the darkroom i put the prints in a bucket until the session is over and I can put them in my newly aquired big archive washer. But now I have to wait for one hour... A nice time to checkout the latest posts at APUG, of course, but I am a bit afraid the running water might wake up the family. So, what would happen if I washed the prints tomorrow instead? Will it destroy the paper?
I asked here before about washing and got some good advice on trying out alikaline fixers to cut down on washing times. I will do that (if I can find some ingrediences here in Sweden) but it won't really solve this problem completely. And I do really like my Ilford Multigrade FB and don't want to go back to RC...

/matti

It depends on the paper. I've done jobs and forgot to take them out of the wash...after 14 hours, the emulsion came off (Zone VI MG fiber paper). Other papers, like Ektalure, same amount of time, or more, and no problem. Best is to wash them just after printing. Using a product like PermaWash will only take you 5 minutes first wash, 5 minutes 2nd wash, 5 minutes final wash. Before you know it, you will be done.

Stoo Batchelor · Jun 25, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
Alexis Neel said:

Depends on the paper. Some are only 4%, others 8%. You should do your own tests.

It doesn't matter what lights you use to view your wet print. As long as you have the ability to know what a print looks like under the situations it will be viewed or reproduced, you can make adjustments. It goes to my basic philosophy...learn how to see and your printing will be fine. I've always used a bank of 4-4foot daylight balanced tubes about 7 feet away and never had a problem, because I know how different situations will look on the prints and I pay attention.

Easy

Click to expand...

No! well yes. Well no!

Ralph has quite obviously spent a lot of thought in to getting his words right. And he was spot on in his explanation.

Your stating that it doesn't matter what light you use to view your print when wet. Sorry to disagree but that it poppycock!

It , as Ralph explained is very important so as that you can evaluate your print in the darkroom when wet. . I see it as a very important triangle. Printing paper in tray>brightness of light>distance of light from print in tray.......

All three have their importance in the evaluation of the final look of the finished print/drydown. This is why it is important to test.

For instance... My dry down for Ilford MG4 FB matt and WT semmi matt is 20%. That is whats set in my R,H.Designs Timer, and it works for me. So you tell me who is wrong. Ralph, Me?... The answer is neither. It is because we have both tested and our 'LIGHT' source is different, along with the distance in relation to the print.

I use a 60 watt daylight bulb about 80cm to a meter from the print.... If I moved it further away I would need less dry down factor set in my timer....Replace the bulb to a 100 watt and I would need more...Replace the paper, well, I would start all over again. You see, all three play there own important part.

So 'LIGHT' is important, would you not agree Alexis.

Kind Regards

Stoo

P.S Please take this as it was meant, that is as a valid argument and not a personal attack. If I were to remove one word, it would be 'Poppycock' the rest would stay.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 25, 2006

Depends on the paper.

Alexis

That's why it's called a rule-of-thumb. 1/12 stop (5%) works quite nicely for most papers. If you experience less or more, change the above figure. The point is, it's easy to compensate for.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 25, 2006

Alexis wrote again, among other things:

It depends on the paper.

Alexis

Photography has rather complex dependencies. One author once said: In photography everything depends on everything else.
Nevertheless, it is helpful to establish and communicate some general guidelines, always realizing that they always influenced by the materials or equipment used.

The statement 'It depends' is true for almost every note in this forum.

Wayne · Jun 25, 2006

I'm sure the many words of advice given above are best heeded, ie dont do it! On the other (lucky, perhaps) hand I have on occasion left prints sitting in water all night long because I was just too tired to wait for the wash. They suffered no ill effects other than being delicate, but its certainly not something I would make a habit of.

Wayne

Can I go to bed now and wash tomorrow?

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