Can I get a B&W developer recommendation?

shawn2nd · Nov 17, 2023

Hey Guys,

So I'm pretty new to the at home developing game, since Summer of 2023 I've developed roughly 25 rolls of 35mm at home, and have been really enjoying the process as a whole. The first developer I used, at recommendation of the workshop leader where I learned how to do this, was FX-39 II. I liked FX-39 II, but the main limitations I was running into with it is its develop times were quite long, and there wasn't great information on using it to push in digital truth. For example, HP5 is famously known for pushing, but the only the box speed is listed in the app for HP5 with FX-39 II. Maybe it can't be used for pushing at all?

So for my second bottle, I picked up HC-110 due to its popularity on YouTube, short development times (5 Minutes to dev HP5 at ISO 400 with Dilution B vs 14 Minutes at ISO 400 with FX-39 II), and clear formulas for pushing in the digital truth app. What I'm not so happy about with HC-110 is mainly the viscosity of it because it's like maple syrup, I only have a 300ml one roll tank, so mixing 10ml of developer with small measure tubes, and the gigantic HC-110 bottle is super impractical, and secondly HC-110 is giving my negatives a slight yellow tint, which I previously didn't get on FX-39 II (All film shot was HP5).

So I went back to trying to find a new developer, and now am of coursed overwhelmed with the options out there lol. So I'm hoping someone with more experience can recommend something based on the following criteria:

Viscosity similar with water, easy to pour, easy to measure with small tubes and tank.
Faster-ish developer times. If I can develop HP5 at box speed in roughly 5-8 minutes this would be great.
Able to push HP5 to 800 and 1600 (with timings available in digital truth).
Keeps a very neutral B&W appearance, no color tinting.
In case it matters, I want to develop using water at 20 degrees celsius.

Thanks in advance guys!

shawn2nd · Nov 17, 2023

I will add, I was just reviewing the HC-110 data sheet, and on page 2 in the middle it states. "IMPORTANT NOTE: Due to the high viscosity of the developer concentrate, it is preferable to dilute it to a stock solution.This may be a more convenient way to store the chemical for future preparation into a working solution, per the above instructions."

I'm a bit confused here, does this mean Kodak recommends pre-mixing a large amount of HC-110 at a time to make the mixing easier, and then you just use this premix solution moving forward? I hadn't thought about this before, but this would at least fix the hard to mix problem I'm having.

Can anyone confirm or add some real life experience here? I would guess that pre-mixing it means it has a shelf life, with the extended time in water the potency of the developer would diminish over time no?

HC 110 Data sheet: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j24.pdf

koraks · Nov 17, 2023

shawn2nd said:
Maybe it can't be used for pushing at all?

Of course. Just extend development. You're not limited by what the massive dev chart or any other source says. I'd try extending development time by 20% or so for HP5+ shot at 800. See what that gives you.
The only side note I'd make with this is that FX39 AFAIK is a developer that tends to emphasize grain a bit. Maybe that's to your liking, maybe not. Just give it a try and if you don't like it, try something else.

shawn2nd said:
HC-110 is giving my negatives a slight yellow tint

This surprises me, especially since I recall that e.g. @DREW WILEY uses it for masking color negative and a yellow-staining developer sounds problematic to me in that context.

Out of interest, why is the tinting of the base and/or image in your case undesirable? For printing and scanning in the regular sense, it doesn't make a difference, so I wonder what you're doing with your film that would create problems in terms of base tint.

shawn2nd said:
overwhelmed with the options out there

Well, the responses you're going to get here are not going to help in that regard...

My first thought would be XTOL or one of the many XTOL clones (Fomadon Excel, Adox XT-3, etc.) But it's a powder developer you make into a stock and then use that as is, or diluted (usually 1+1). HP5+ at 400 in XTOL undiluted takes about 8.5 minutes. Push times are available through the massive dev chart - but as said, I wouldn't be stopped by a lack of data in the chart. Just experiment as you see fit.

shawn2nd said:
Can anyone confirm or add some real life experience here?

For HC110, you really want to read this page very carefully: https://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html
It'll answer most of your questions. Sadly, it's not being indexed very well by Google so it doesn't turn up in searches the way IMO it really should! It's by far the best resource out there on this developer.

chriscrawfordphoto · Nov 17, 2023

With HC-110, Kodak recommends diluting the concentrate 1+3 to make a stock solution. That is not the working-strength solution. To get the working strength solution, you dilture the concentrate even more. To get Dilution B (the most common dilution used for HC-110) you dilute the stock solution 1+7.

The reason for making the stock solution is that it is easier to measure and pour than the thick concentrate, but still has a decent shelf life. The working strength solution has a very short shelf life and should be used right after mixing it.

chriscrawfordphoto · Nov 17, 2023

I have never used FX-39II, so I don't know if its a good pushing developer. Xtol, D-76, and Tmax Developer are all good for push processing, and Ilford's data sheet for HP5 has developing times for all three of those developers, and HC-110 (which I think is not as good for pushing) at speeds of 400, 800, 1600, and 3200. I recommend Tmax Developer since it comes as a liquid. Xtol and D-76 are powders. Tmax is expensive, about $20 for a one liter bottle. Freestyle's Lmax Developer is identical and costs half as much.

Here is Ilford's data sheet for HP5.

juan · Nov 17, 2023

I used HC110 for many years. I never followed Kodak's recommendation to make that intermediate dilution. I used a syringe from the baby department of my local drug store to pull the concentrate from the bottle. I put a length of plastic tubing on the syringe. While the syringe would not be accurate enough for scientific experimentation, its good enough for us if consistent.

I've never seen any yellow stains, so can't help there.

As for another liquid concentrate developer, you could try one of the Rodinal variations. This one should be easy for you to get.

ADOX Rodinal 500 ml conc. - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

Agfa Rodinal has now been replaced by Adox Rodinal. The formulation and developing times are exactly the same - only the packaging has changed! Acutance enhancing film ...

www.fotoimpex.com

npl · Nov 17, 2023

shawn2nd said:
I will add, I was just reviewing the HC-110 data sheet, and on page 2 in the middle it states. "IMPORTANT NOTE: Due to the high viscosity of the developer concentrate, it is preferable to dilute it to a stock solution.This may be a more convenient way to store the chemical for future preparation into a working solution, per the above instructions."

I'm a bit confused here, does this mean Kodak recommends pre-mixing a large amount of HC-110 at a time to make the mixing easier, and then you just use this premix solution moving forward? I hadn't thought about this before, but this would at least fix the hard to mix problem I'm having.

Can anyone confirm or add some real life experience here? I would guess that pre-mixing it means it has a shelf life, with the extended time in water the potency of the developer would diminish over time no?

HC 110 Data sheet: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j24.pdf

You don't have to mix a large amount of stock solution if you don't want to, just what you think you'll need for a few week/month depending of how much you shoot. @chriscrawfordphoto explained how and why in post #4.

If you go with dilution b it's then 38ml stock solution and 262ml water to make 300ml total. There's a convenient dilution chart in the datasheet you may have already saw.

I did exactly this recently to develop two roll of hp5+ shot at box speed, it works just fine. In the past I also used HC-110 to push it to 800 or 1600 but I was using the concentrate directly at the time, using the popular syringe method.

snusmumriken · Nov 17, 2023

I too am puzzled why you want a neutral colour? If you are scanning your negatives, simply scan as greyscale rather than RGB, or convert the image later in Photoshop or whatever you use (I use GIMP, which is freeware).

Pushing is a bit of a myth. You cannot markedly change the sensitivity of the emulsion. What you do by choosing an ISO greater than box speed is simply to under-expose. You will lose some shadow detail inevitably, and to bring negative contrast up to a normal level for easy printing or scanning you must use longer development times, which brings the downside of grainier negatives. As you say, HP5 is very tolerant of such liberties, but please don't believe that this allows the film to record in lower light levels. All you have done is to accept that circumstances obliged you to under-expose, and developed the film to make the best of the situation. [EDIT: Some people do pushing just to get that 'look', of course.]

A few developers e.g. Ilford Microphen (data sheet attached) are specially formulated for push-processing, but in order to avoid excessive graininess they tend to be very dilute and therefore have long development times. You can't have all the things in your list at once - there are inevitable trade-offs. [Ilford claims Microphen increases film speed, but that seems misleading. To the best of my understanding, it would be more accurate to say it makes best achievable use of the emulsion's sensitivity.]

Romanko · Nov 17, 2023

I would recommend sticking with HC-110 for now. Get some 250 ml amber glass lab bottles and decant the concentrate from the large bottle. Use an oral syringe to measure the concentrate. I never had a problem with the yellow tint that you mentioned. It must come from somewhere else in your development process. HC-110 is very versatile with regard to temperature. The temperature coefficients work very well (see https://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html) so once you established your development times at 20 degrees you can calculate the time at any temperature, all the way down to 4 degrees Celsius. I often develop at 18 degrees to avoid very short development times with dilution B.

rcphoto · Nov 17, 2023

I have found L-110 to be a cheaper alternative to genuine HC110 and is not thick like the original hc110.

I was also under the impression that the original HC110(thicker stuff) was no longer being made by anyone.

otto.f · Nov 17, 2023

shawn2nd said:
Maybe it can't be used for pushing at all?

It's more that FX39ii is more appropriate for slower films and T-grain. HC110 and Ilford's counterparts are better for HP5. My personal opinion about it is that I like it better when pushed to 800 and I do not see FX39ii so much as a pusher indeed.

shawn2nd · Nov 17, 2023

Thanks for the insights all, especially for the https://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html link, ok maybe I'll stick with HC-110 a bit longer, the syringe thing is a good suggestion, I haven't tried that yet!

Dustin McAmera · Nov 17, 2023

snusmumriken said:
Pushing is a bit of a myth. You cannot markedly change the sensitivity of the emulsion.

Let's not get into that discussion again.

Romanko said:
I would recommend sticking with HC-110 for now.

+1. It's worth getting well used to one developer.

I keep Rodinal and HC110. They're actually not dramatically different in results. I always make up HC110 from the thick stuff: I'm interested that the replacements for it are thin now, but my bottle of the thick one will last me some time yet. I use a tall glass graduated pipette that I scavenged from a skip (dumpster to some of you) when I worked at the university. It takes a little more care than a measuring cylinder, and I have to wash the pipette out with the solution, two or three times, to make sure I get all of the concentrate. I use HC110 for pushing as well as for normal developing.
If you want to try stand or semi-stand developing (there's another long discussion to be had) either Rodinal or HC110 will do for that.
If I make some ID-11 for a change I like the change: it gives a nice crisp, tiny grain. But once you have made up a stock from powder the clock is ticking on it.

koraks · Nov 17, 2023

Dustin McAmera said:
Let's not get into that discussion again.

Indeed. Thanks.

(Plenty of places where this has been discussed, and it's OK to open a new thread about it if someone really feels the need for it, but let's not make every thread where pushing is mentioned a platform for debating whether it's a useful practice.)

Helge · Nov 17, 2023

XTOL 1:1.
Don't bother with replenishing when you are new. I don't bother with replenish and I'd not call myself new to development.
1:1 comes with slight speed advantages and the economy of replenishing seems false to me.
But replenishing comes with other advantages, so might be worth considering in the long run.

HC110, Rodinal and D76 are all good developers, but I just prefer XTOL as my main "default" developer.

The below is not the whole thruth of course, but still gives a pretty good idea.
Keep in mind "most, finest and highest" is not necessarily always better, and can be dialled with technique to some extent.

Ballinderry-Michael · Nov 17, 2023

As far as the "yellow tint" goes, try giving an affected short strip another fix (you can just put it in a dish in daylight to do that). Then wash and dry it as usual. Inadequate fixing often can leave the film looking a bit yellowish - and unclear as well.

If you like HC-110 apart from its viscosity, then try Bellini's Euro HC, which is not at all viscous. It's sold in smaller bottles too. There is also Ilfotec HC: both it and the Bellini can be used with the standard HC-110 times until experimentation gives you results you like more.

I like Delta 100 more than HP5+; but that's your business, not mine!

Sirius Glass · Nov 17, 2023

Helge said:
XTOL 1:1.
Don't bother with replenishing when you are new. I don't bother with replenish and I'd not call myself new to development.
1:1 comes with slight speed advantages and the economy of replenishing seems false to me.
But replenishing comes with other advantages, so might be worth considering in the long run.

HC110, Rodinal and D76 are all good developers, but I just prefer XTOL as my main "default" developer.

The below is not the whole thruth of course, but still gives a pretty good idea.
Keep in mind "most, finest and highest" is not necessarily always better, and can be dialled with technique to some extent.
View attachment 353792

I use XTOL or its equivalents used as Stock or replenished. It is a very forgiving developer that gives a slight boost of the ISO speed. That allows some more shadow detail provided that would normally not be there without compensation.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2023

Normally I use replenished X-Tol, but I used to use HC-110 a lot, and still do so from time to time.
I use a small 45ml Paterson measuring graduate to make use of the HC-110 syrup.
I put 30ml or so of water in it - looking carefully at where the meniscus falls - preferably right on the one of the lines.
I then slowly pour the syrup into the graduate, until the meniscus rises up to the line opposite my new volume - usually 6ml higher than where I started, because I normally use 6 ml syrup per roll.
I now have 6 ml of syrup in some water in the graduate. It gets poured into the larger graduate that I use to mix up the total volume I intend to use for that purpose.
Be sure to rinse the 45ml graduate several times into the larger graduate, to make sure all the syrup gets where it belongs.
When I started doing this, I didn't need glasses to clearly see the meniscus. I miss those days .

Helge · Nov 17, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I use XTOL or its equivalents used as Stock or replenished. It is a very forgiving developer that gives a slight boost of the ISO speed. That allows some more shadow detail provided that would normally not be there without compensation.

Which makes XTOL a good dev. for push processing too. Even stand push is possible. I got a surprising amount of shadow detail from D3200 shot around EV 5 - 8, developed in 1:2 @ 20°C for around 25 min.
Don't go thinner than that as the solution is apt to oxidize and lose potential. Don't go hotter as D3200 is terrible at fogging.
For regular development of D3200 at any speed, use stock/undiluted, and better a little too long than too little.
D3200 is a film that likes developer ;-).

Sirius Glass · Nov 17, 2023

Helge said:
Which makes XTOL a good dev. for push processing too. Even stand push is possible. I got a surprising amount of shadow detail from D3200 shot around EV 5 - 8, developed in 1:2 @ 20°C for around 25 min.
Don't go thinner than that as the solution is apt to oxidise and lose potential. Don't go hotter as D3200 is terrible at fogging.
For regular development of D3200 at any speed, use stock/undiluted, and better a little too long than too little.
D3200 is a film that likes developer ;-).

I store XTOL in bags with the air forced out and tightly sealed. I have had stock XTOL and replenished XTOL stored for years. Buy the funnel to make filling the bags much easier. StopLossBags.com

logan2z · Nov 17, 2023

MattKing said:
Normally I use replenished X-Tol, but I used to use HC-110 a lot, and still do so from time to time.
I use a small 45ml Paterson measuring graduate to make use of the HC-110 syrup.
I put 30ml or so of water in it - looking carefully at where the meniscus falls - preferably right on the one of the lines.
I then slowly pour the syrup into the graduate, until the meniscus rises up to the line opposite my new volume - usually 6ml higher than where I started, because I normally use 6 ml syrup per roll.
I now have 6 ml of syrup in some water in the graduate. It gets poured into the larger graduate that I use to mix up the total volume I intend to use for that purpose.
Be sure to rinse the 45ml graduate several times into the larger graduate, to make sure all the syrup gets where it belongs.
When I started doing this, I didn't need glasses to clearly see the meniscus. I miss those days .

I follow this exact procedure based on an old post you made describing it. Works well for me. I realize it may not be 100% accurate but I figure consistency is what matters the most.

BMbikerider · Nov 17, 2023

shawn2nd said:
Hey Guys,

So I'm pretty new to the at home developing game, since Summer of 2023 I've developed roughly 25 rolls of 35mm at home, and have been really enjoying the process as a whole. The first developer I used, at recommendation of the workshop leader where I learned how to do this, was FX-39 II. I liked FX-39 II, but the main limitations I was running into with it is its develop times were quite long, and there wasn't great information on using it to push in digital truth. For example, HP5 is famously known for pushing, but the only the box speed is listed in the app for HP5 with FX-39 II. Maybe it can't be used for pushing at all?

So for my second bottle, I picked up HC-110 due to its popularity on YouTube, short development times (5 Minutes to dev HP5 at ISO 400 with Dilution B vs 14 Minutes at ISO 400 with FX-39 II), and clear formulas for pushing in the digital truth app. What I'm not so happy about with HC-110 is mainly the viscosity of it because it's like maple syrup, I only have a 300ml one roll tank, so mixing 10ml of developer with small measure tubes, and the gigantic HC-110 bottle is super impractical, and secondly HC-110 is giving my negatives a slight yellow tint, which I previously didn't get on FX-39 II (All film shot was HP5).

So I went back to trying to find a new developer, and now am of coursed overwhelmed with the options out there lol. So I'm hoping someone with more experience can recommend something based on the following criteria:

Viscosity similar with water, easy to pour, easy to measure with small tubes and tank.

Faster-ish developer times. If I can develop HP5 at box speed in roughly 5-8 minutes this would be great.

Able to push HP5 to 800 and 1600 (with timings available in digital truth).

Keeps a very neutral B&W appearance, no color tinting.

In case it matters, I want to develop using water at 20 degrees celsius.

Thanks in advance guys!

Be very careful with digital truth charts, they are not always up to date. When manufacturers of the films change their formulas which need a change in timings, they don't tell the authors of that chart. I know if you go onto the Ilford website they publish a complete list of current times & dilutions. It is a free download.

The full URL is as follows
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Film-processing-chart-301118-Final-version.pdf

Steven Lee · Nov 17, 2023

Looks like you prefer liquid developer concentrates, and if the viscosity of HC-110 is your only complaint, I would agree with others who recommended HC-110 clones.

The one I prefer is Ilfotec HC. It is offered by a stable company (Harman/Ilford) which has been around for a long time. It comes with a proper datasheet. It is available world-wide and there's plenty of knowledge about that developer online. Although to be honest the Ilford datasheet is all you really need. It is not exactly like water, but far from maple syrup. I always found it easy to work with, even when I need just 300ml of working solution.

And the best part is that it lasts forever. My bottle is on its 2nd year and I have never heard of anyone saying that their Ilfotec HC has gone bad.

Todd Niccole · Nov 18, 2023

Clayton F76 Plus. It's also sold under the brand name Arista(Liquid Film Developer) in smaller 12oz bottles from Freestyle. I think the recommended dilutions is a bit off from my experience. I prefer the 1to14 dilution for box speed with dev times for the 1to9, particularly HP5. But I usually develop only a smaller segment of a roll at a time.

Xylo · Nov 18, 2023

I'm going to throw something out there... anybody ever tried Ilford HC?
I don't know if it's more liquid then HC-110 nor do I know if it's comparable in any way, but from looking at the MSDS, it looks like it relies only on Hydroquinone, just like the Kodak stuff.

Can I get a B&W developer recommendation?

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