Can China Save Film?

Discoman mentioned Lucky and Shanghai perhaps making color, slide, and B&W LF film.

Lucky does make a 200-speed 35mm color print film, and Shanghai makes 4x5 B&W sheet film. I have some of both, bought new via eBay. They're both good -- not great, mind you, but good.

Like all bubble economies, they pop one day... then what? Japan has never been the same since their bubble economy popped over 20 years ago. China alone will not be the saviour of film. I can still get ashphaltum and lithography stones from a local art store (did one nation save lithography??), I'm sure I'll still be able to get film. If not, no worries. I'll coat my own.

Andrew O'Neill said:

Like all bubble economies, they pop one day... then what? Japan has never been the same since their bubble economy popped over 20 years ago. China alone will not be the saviour of film. I can still get ashphaltum and lithography stones from a local art store (did one nation save lithography??), I'm sure I'll still be able to get film. If not, no worries. I'll coat my own.

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You are not going to coat your own film.

RattyMouse said:

You are not going to coat your own film.

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Why not?


Steve.

You are not going to coat your own film.

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Agreed, why not? Done all the time.

Ummm, done it and will do it again.

Perhaps RattyMouse meant that there will not be a need to rather than you won't be able to.


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

Perhaps RattyMouse meant that there will not be a need to rather than you won't be able to.


Steve.

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Or referring to colour film.

Diapositivo said:

China is such a huge market that at the moment is basically what make the Ferrari or the Bösendorfer of this planet work. If a Lomo craze emerged in China, that would lift many Ilfords, and if colour film gets a renewed interest, that would keep colour film alive alone.

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I find that an interesting thought. The new 100 Lomo films, Orca and Color Tiger, come from China. I don't know about the 35mm or 120 films Lomo sells. Maybe the prople there will get as enthused as some of the Lomo fans. While, IMHO, most of the photos on the Lomo site are just crappy snapshots, they are using film and processing, so we can too.

This isn't a verifiable fact, but during the California gold rush during the 1800s, the miners were so busy panning gold, that they couldn't do laundry. Some of the laundry was sent to China. What if C-41 wasn't available here in the US anymore? Maybe the Chinese want to process C-41. There are many cheap products sold on Meritline that is shipped directly from China. There's a general perception that China only makes shoddy cheap good. Not so. Just look at the high quality Iphone made in Shenzhen. I think China is capable of high quality C-41 processing also.

Kodak helped China build a modern film plant there. Even so, they were not able to meet the stringent QC demands of EK (AFAIK) and Kodak backed out of the agreement. But, at the same time, China was jumping from film directly to digital and this has only sped up.

IMHO, I think that in a few years, China will be rather disinterested in film products for the most part. If they are in it, it will be at some low level to meet demands. It will involve no high level product design or improvement.

How do you like the films from China right now? Expect more of the same with slight improvements.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Kodak helped China build a modern film plant there. Even so, they were not able to meet the stringent QC demands of EK (AFAIK) and Kodak backed out of the agreement. But, at the same time, China was jumping from film directly to digital and this has only sped up.

IMHO, I think that in a few years, China will be rather disinterested in film products for the most part. If they are in it, it will be at some low level to meet demands. It will involve no high level product design or improvement.

How do you like the films from China right now? Expect more of the same with slight improvements.

PE

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The lack of interest reportedly has been around for a few years. Acceptable quality dev/print service and a reasonable selection of film are getting harder to find, with the exception of HK. If anything, QC on Chinese-made film materials has never been their most notable feature.

I find this thread kinda like asking if burger stands will save steakhouses. If you want Kodak or Fuji quality level of color film to survive, then you should be placing your money on a horse already in the race. Qualitatively, not much survives the shift to China, even if they were interested. One of
the most abused terms in our neo-language is "outsourcing" - more often than not, it's a synonym
for "bait and switch".

DREW WILEY said:

I find this thread kinda like asking if burger stands will save steakhouses. If you want Kodak or Fuji quality level of color film to survive, then you should be placing your money on a horse already in the race. Qualitatively, not much survives the shift to China, even if they were interested. One of
the most abused terms in our neo-language is "outsourcing" - more often than not, it's a synonym
for "bait and switch".

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Apple makes it work, for the obvious reason of screaming demand for its products. But film?

Apple also makes it work because they have engaged with the consumer, high consumer satisfaction too, a nameless, faceless Chinese company is going to have a high barrier to entry, unlike say Ilford who has a face (ohhh Simon)....

zsas said:

Apple also makes it work because they have engaged with the consumer, high consumer satisfaction too, a nameless, faceless Chinese company is going to have a high barrier to entry, unlike say Ilford who has a face (ohhh Simon)....

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Foxconn? Faceless?

I was agreeing with you.

Anyway, Foxconn makes other companies consumer goods (Apple, Samsung, Sony, etc...). They are not a "face" per se....

You dont go to the store and buy a "Foxconn phone" or tablet, or TV....see what I mean?

Ilford is a face, who also manufacture, same with Kodak (but hardly have a "face" in the film game anymore)....

zsas said:

I was agreeing with you.

Anyway, Foxconn makes other companies consumer goods (Apple, Samsung, Sony, etc...). They are not a "face" per se....

You dont go to the store and buy a "Foxconn phone" or tablet, or TV....see what I mean?

Ilford is a face, who also manufacture, same with Kodak (but hardly have a "face" in the film game anymore)....

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Ilford's workers aren't jumping from factory windows, either. Ilford is the future.

Ha! I just saw your little rewrite of history, Mr MaineCooncat, presumably a conoisseur of kitties the
size of Pleistocene ground sloth species. Shipping laundry to China would be a bit annoyingly slow even in this day and age. Laundry sometimes came into SF and back via barges from the goldfields.
But mostly, Chinese labor entered the Mother Lode and higher Sierra for a variety of reasons, including livestock. Two weeks ago I was photographing some of their lovely old stone fences and
stock enclosures up there. And all through the area the the "tree of heaven" which they brought over from China have spread like weeds, though I think they are beautiful. The Chinese were all over
the high passes tending sheep, even in areas now considered remote to even seasoned backpackers,
and well before John Muir described such places. One pass was considered so miserable that to this
day it carries a Chinese expletive name so foul it is impossible to translate.

Take your pick: http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question123505.html

DREW WILEY said:

...And all through the area the the "tree of heaven" which they brought over from China have spread like weeds, though I think they are beautiful.

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These keep sprouting along a fence by my chile garden. They're almost impossible to kill and when the leaves are torn they stink. The stench of Ailanthus in the air was the signature odor of my childhood summers in Illinois.

One pass was considered so miserable that to this day it carries a Chinese expletive name so foul it is impossible to translate.

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I must learn of this word.

s-a

I don't believe China's going to "save" film, but I think not for a lot of the reasons people think.

I've been living in Beijing for two years now and keeping up shooting film even in the capitol is a hit and miss affair. C41 & E6 processing service is commonly available via sendout at Kodak Express outlets which are everywhere, and there are some pro labs as well that offer traditional B&W. The Wukesong Camera Market will sell you some version of anything related to photography you can imagine from digital P&S's to field cameras to studio lighting to traditional darkroom gear. The film selection isn't as broad as what you get stateside, but they stock C41, E6 and B&W in rolls and sheets. Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and Lucky were all represented. Some segment of the population is clearly still shooting film.

That said though, film is vanishingly rare in standard retail channels. The Kodak Express outlet near my school had a few rolls that I suspect had been in the display case a very long time. I have never seen a single roll or disposable camera in say, grocery stores.

The sense I get about film in Beijing is that it's the purview of a limited number of pros and well-to-do hobbyists, some casual older hold-outs who haven't taken to digital and possibly a segment of the working class for whom even a cheap digital camera is expensive. So, my impression is that film manufacturing carries on in China not because the population has special interest in it, but rather because it still fulfills a niche that digital isn't yet able to realistically fill. It's not a place that's ripe for a second analog coming.

People continue to miss the point I am trying to make about China saving film. I am NOT, repeat NOT talking about Chinese domestic film consumption. I am talking about China's ability to manufacture things at a very low cost. The problem with film right now is that Kodak and Fuji cannot produce film with any appreciable amount of profits. Sure Kodak claims to make money from film now but it is a pitiful amount compared to the profits that Kodak's owners demand. So there is no future for film with Kodak. Someone has to be able to make film more cheaply. Clearly that can happen in China if someone decides to do so. They wont have the massive overhead that Kodak has from their glory days and can make film in far smaller amounts FOR EXPORT to the west.

Film still has a user base correct? That base needs to be able to buy film at a cost that isnt too high, in order to allow that base to grow. Kodak isnt going to get you there. Is Fujifilm? Ilford is a big player and is doing everything pretty much right. But what about color film? Could Ilford start up color film production? If not, someone could do it in China, far far cheaper than Kodak, Ilford, and Fujifilm.

I think that I answered that in my post. QC in the "Kodak" plant in China was not up to Kodak standards AFAIK.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

I think that I answered that in my post. QC in the "Kodak" plant in China was not up to Kodak standards AFAIK.

PE

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That was a long time ago PE. No place on earth changes as fast or as much as China. When I first arrived in Shanghai in 2006, there were TWO subway lines under the city. Today, there are 14 and more are under construction.

Whatever film situation existed when Kodak pulled out of China, you can bet ever last dollar that today, that situation is totally unrecognizable to those who knew the previous time.