Can anyone ID this 120 folder?

Kino · Sep 27, 2019

This shutter was on a lot of plate cameras, but I can't seem to locate a brand name on the camera...

Edit: I now know the Shutter is a Gauthier, and the lens "Erkos Anastigmat" has some tie to Frietal, Germany.

Perhaps this is a Ihagee or Certo model?

Looks like a plate camera shutter on a roll film body.

MattKing · Sep 28, 2019

You probably know this.
Is there an embossed name on the outside leather?
If it is like my "Baby Bessa", an older camera's embossed characters are very difficult to see/read.

Kino · Sep 28, 2019

MattKing said:
You probably know this.
Is there an embossed name on the outside leather?
If it is like my "Baby Bessa", an older camera's embossed characters are very difficult to see/read.

Yes, that's the first thing I looked for; nothing.
Perhaps it's "jobber" camera; made by a camera distributor in Germany. Kind of like Spiritone...

AgX · Sep 28, 2019

It may habve been made by ERKO resp. ERKOS in Freital (not Frietal).
The firms only existed for 6 years in total.

I dived into my own archive and information is really scarce.

There are cameras listed in literature, but I am not sure they even made cameras themselves. However there are hints that they made lenses already in the 30s. ERKOS lenses however are found on Baier cameras.

macfred · Sep 28, 2019

As far as I know Erkos and Beier cameras came both from Freital - they used identical parts for their cameras.
Here are some informations about the Beier / Freital plate cameras http://www.beier-kamera.de/html/plattenkameras.html
and 6x9 rollfilm cameras http://www.beier-kamera.de/html/rollfilmkameras_6_x_9.html

Kino · Sep 28, 2019

Thank you AgX and Macfred.

This is quite the rabbit-hole to fall down! Just as confusing as early Japanese camera history...

Kino · Sep 28, 2019

I wonder if this is a camera constructed sometime shortly after WWII by Beier?

According to the above website, Beier had to rebuild the factory from leftover scrap after the Soviet Union dismantled and transported the entire factory and plans by train to Ulyanovsk.

Kino · Sep 28, 2019

Another thing I have noticed is that the top speed of this shutter is 1/125th of a second. All other copies I have found so far in my brief search have 1/100th of a second as the top speed.

Edit: Of course, now I find examples but these have an association with OIP (Optiques et Instruments de Precision) in Belgium.

AgX · Sep 28, 2019

Kino said:
I wonder if this is a camera constructed sometime shortly after WWII by Beier?

No.

AgX · Sep 28, 2019

Kino said:
According to the above website, Beier had to rebuild the factory from leftover scrap after the Soviet Union dismantled and transported the entire factory and plans by train to Ulyanovsk.

The rather small Baier camera-factory was not rebuilt in the USSR, if that is what you wanted to indicate.

ALL allied governments decided for dismantling and most also for confiscating part of german industries. Only the degree and timeframe varied.
In one province of the soviet-zone it even went further. By first german post-war plebiscite people in Saxonia voted for nationalisation of german manufacturers, who were involved with Nazism.

All those policies were contradicting and even were changed over time.
So there were urges for reparation of allied losses (by newly made goods, but also by existing machinery), urges for dismantling (as reparation, but also to weaken german industry) and urges of nationalisation. A mess, practically as legally. The german photographic industry was caught in this dilemma too. Destruction by allied bombing or dismantling effected many of its manufacturers.

Kino · Sep 28, 2019

AgX said:
The rather small Baier camera-factory was not rebuilt in the USSR, if that is what you wanted to indicate.

No, the link indicates that Baier Management and Employees re-built the camera factory from salvaged items and resumed small scale production...

AgX · Sep 28, 2019

Well, they did not resume small scall production, but a major production. But it took them years to regain their capacity (as many other german manuifucturers of all kinds. But typically small firms are more harmed by such.
Baier became a major manufacturer of consumer cameras in the GDR, for home-use and export.

macfred · Sep 28, 2019

More about Erko, Erkos and Beier from the German Zeit-und-Blende forum (unfortunately only in German language but with lot of details and knowledge - could be a nice read for AgX).
Zeit-und-Blende user Freier-Sascha reported in the linked thread that Erkos (formerly Erko) never did cameras - only lenses: https://blende-und-zeit.sirutor-und-compur.de/thread.php?board=1&thread=68&page=1
---

More history from collectiblend.com about Erko / Erkos and another Freital company - Weeka Kamerawerke (later Welta) :

''Not much known about ERKO Fotowerk Radewensky & Koszuszek. It was established in 1920s(?), in Freital (Mozartstraße 6), Germany, by two entrepreneurs -
Messrs. Radewensky and Koszuszek. In March 1924 the company went bankrupt, and the premises were reused by the ERKOS company, owned solely by Arno Koszuszek.
Interestingly, around the same time, in 1914, Walter Waurich, Waldemar Radewensky and Theodor Weber founded another Freital company - Weeka-Kamera-Werk (later Welta)''.

AgX · Sep 28, 2019

I read that thread before. But there are on the net so many contradiciting informations, that meanwhile I dived into my own archive and got doubts on them making cameras.

However in case ERKOS indeed made that camera, as some believe, the designation of the lens may thus been for the rest of the camera too.
But in case some other manufacturer made the body, eg. Beier, why then did not bear the camera that brand? Only explanation that comes to my mind is that it was made for the dealer to stick his brand label himself on the body. However so far I thought such always was made by the manufacturer already.

macfred · Sep 28, 2019

AgX said:
... But in case some other manufacturew made the body, eg, Baier, why then did not bears the camera that brand? Only explanation that comes to my mind is that it was made for the dealer to stick his brand label himself on the body. However so far I thought such always made by the manufacturer already.

I agree with you. There were Rodenstock labeled cameras with Rodenstock lenses though Rodenstock never made own cameras (and those cameras look exactly like a Beier - one). Who knows ...
Anyway, there are some very nice Erko and / or Beier folder cameras out there and I think I'll get one someday.

ced · Sep 30, 2019

I have a similar setup on a small Ihagee plate (+/- 6x8cm) camera, the lens though is a Meyer-Gorlitz Ihagee Anastigmat Trioplan 1:4.5 f=10.5cm.
Find some info here that may help.
http://www.exaktacircle.org/Books/ihgmen&cam.pdf

AgX · Mar 20, 2020

AgX said:
I read that thread before. But there are on the net so many contradiciting informations, that meanwhile I dived into my own archive and got doubts on them making cameras.

However in case ERKOS indeed made that camera, as some believe, the designation of the lens may thus been for the rest of the camera too.
But in case some other manufacturer made the body, eg. Beier, why then did not bear the camera that brand? Only explanation that comes to my mind is that it was made for the dealer to stick his brand label himself on the body. However so far I thought such always was made by the manufacturer already.

I meanwhile found another source (re-reading a book in my collection) .
There ERKOS is described as lens manufacturer.

In about 1930 the firm went bancrupt, but was reinstalled by same entepreneur. under the name Erison, and dissolved in 1954. The small plant then being bought by Pouva to enlarge their already existing lensmaking department.

BobD · Mar 20, 2020

I found mention of an ERKOFOTOWERKE Freital Germany.via google and there are cameras listed on eBay with Erkos lenses IDed as ERKO cameras.

AgX · Mar 20, 2020

I know of the term "ERKO Fotowerk". That was the very first form of that firm, before it changed to ERKOS.

What do you mean by "IDed as ERKO cameras" ?
People can write anything in their Ebay offers. Or do you refer to cameras with ERKO labelled elsewhere than at the lens?

BobD · Mar 20, 2020

AgX said:
What do you mean by "IDed as ERKO cameras" ?
People can write anything in their Ebay offers. Or do you refer to cameras with ERKO labelled elsewhere than at the lens?

I mean that some sellers identify the cameras as "Erko," as in, "This is an Erko camera with Erkos lens."

I am aware that eBay sellers can write anything they want and I am also aware that ebay sellers sometimes misidentify things they are selling. I just thought I'd mention it as a point of possible interest.

Can anyone ID this 120 folder?

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