Can anyone explain this passage from Vestal/Craft of Photography

spl · Jul 21, 2022

I've been reading the book The Craft of Photography by David Vestal. In chapter 2 on Light Meters Mr. Vestal describes a system of metering off and exposing for shadows that seems to me similar to the Adams Zone System, but simplified, and in order to apply it he suggests a 'Poor Man's Spot Meter.'

Well, being a poor man myself, or perhaps more accurately with modern and vintage spot meters being amongst the most expensive equipment, I have never acquired one. (Though I have a Leningrad 7 for incident/reflected readings.) So can anyone explain this paragraph to me as I can't make heads nor tails of it and I would like to leverage it if I could understand it:

The Poor Man's Spot Meter. When you can't get close enough to your subject to read its tones directly with a reflected-light meter, hold up a substitute target-your hand or sleeve, a gray or white card, or anything handy that has about the right tone-and turn it in the light, looking past it at the subject area you want to read. When the subject and target match in tone, take a normal meter reading on the target and interpret it according to the picture's needs. -- Vestal, David. “The Craft of Photography.” Hardcover (1975), pp 31.

GregY · Jul 21, 2022

What he is saying is to take a substitute reading off a similar object that matches the tone you would meter if you could.

spl · Jul 21, 2022

GregY said:
What he is saying is to take a substitute reading off a similar object that matches the tone you would meter if you could.

So, I guess the part that's most confusing me is how he talks about using a card/sleeve/etc and `Turn[ing] it in the light'. Does this imply that I rotate the card in the light to make it lighter/darker until it matches the target spot then I take the reading with the reflected meter by placing it beside my eye? Because if I place it anywhere else then I won't be measuring what I see.

GregY · Jul 21, 2022

spl said:
So, I guess the part that's most confusing me is how he talks about using a card/sleeve/etc and `Turn[ing] it in the light'. Does this imply that I rotate the card in the light to make it lighter/darker until it matches the target spot then I take the reading with the reflected meter by placing it beside my eye? Because if I place it anywhere else then I won't be measuring what I see.

yes..... he's just explained it poorly. If the object is in the sun with a white shirt.... & i am in the shade also in a white shirt.... my meter reading won't be accurate. The substitute has to have the same illumination.....otherwise it's not an accurate substitute. (That's assuming i want a reading off a highlight..... shoot only B&W as i do, i more often measure a shadow) but that's a separate issue

reddesert · Jul 21, 2022

Basically he's saying to rotate your substitute target (card, hand, etc) relative to the light source, so that the combination of its intrinsic tone and its angle to the light matches the tonal value of the true subject.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 22, 2022

spl said:
I've been reading the book The Craft of Photography by David Vestal. In chapter 2 on Light Meters Mr. Vestal describes a system of metering off and exposing for shadows that seems to me similar to the Adams Zone System, but simplified, and in order to apply it he suggests a 'Poor Man's Spot Meter.'

Well, being a poor man myself, or perhaps more accurately with modern and vintage spot meters being amongst the most expensive equipment, I have never acquired one. (Though I have a Leningrad 7 for incident/reflected readings.) So can anyone explain this paragraph to me as I can't make heads nor tails of it and I would like to leverage it if I could understand it:

No matter how you interpret it. If you're serious about the zone system, do you need a spot meter. I suggest a used Pentax Digital. Can be had 2nd-hand for about $200.

spl · Jul 25, 2022

Hi @RalphLambrecht. Thanks for the advice. I have looked around but I'm not finding the Pentax Digital for that price and having said that I think I prefer the direct EV read of the Pentax Spotmeter V since I'm rarely in so much of a hurry to take a picture that I can't consider my camera settings manually.

Once my negatives are developed I scan instead of print, which I believe is much more forgiving.

As I'm in Europe my best chance of getting my hands on a V for 200 is from Japan, whereas the Digital runs over 400 as best I can see. I'll keep an eye out.

Sirius Glass · Jul 25, 2022

spl said:
Hi @RalphLambrecht. Thanks for the advice. I have looked around but I'm not finding the Pentax Digital for that price and having said that I think I prefer the direct EV read of the Pentax Spotmeter V since I'm rarely in so much of a hurry to take a picture that I can't consider my camera settings manually.

Once my negatives are developed I scan instead of print, which I believe is much more forgiving.

As I'm in Europe my best chance of getting my hands on a V for 200 is from Japan, whereas the Digital runs over 400 as best I can see. I'll keep an eye out.

My experience with the Pentax Digital Spot Meter is that it is designed for ISO 100 film and one should not transfer the EV to the camera, rather transfer the f/stop and shutter speed to the camera and then use the EV on the camera to adjust the f/stop & shutter speed and/or filter settings and/or Zone Systems settings OR use the spot meter's EV and adjust for the Zone System and transfer the f/stop and shutter speed, not the resultant EV, to the camera. This is critical when using other than ISO 100 film as I discovered the hard way. Therefore I have made this my practice.

I suspect that this lesson learned will apply to the Pentax Spot Meter V.

pentaxuser · Jul 25, 2022

OP, it all sounds very numb and vague to me once you try to examine what he might or might not be saying and how you might turn this poor man's lightmeter into a practical instrument that works. I always get worried when there is no amplification or illustration as to how you go about doing what you think he is saying

Maybe those with spot meters can try to do what David Vestal says and when they think they have done what he says then measure with a spot meter. Once done let us know how close you get

pentaxuser

Rayt · Jul 25, 2022

My first meter was a Minolta Spotmeter F because I didn’t know anything about meters. I should have bought an incident meter. After reading up on the subject and figured out how to use it I carried a grey card with me. I metered the gray card and opened up a stop because I was shooting people/street photography until I figured out to just meter my hand.

grat · Jul 25, 2022

I picked up a Cambron (Soligor rebrand) analog meter (has the EV guide on the side) fairly cheap, and I've gotten good results from it.

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 25, 2022

I'll put in another vote for a Minolta Spotmeter F - they are available for ~$200 and the good thing is they use an AA battery, so no matter where you are, if your battery dies, you can find a substitute. DO NOT make the mistake of getting a Spotmeter M instead - they're cheaper, but they run on a silver oxide battery, and the only form of on/off switch is the lens cap. The battery is very much a specialty battery, and it is easy to lose the lens cap. Not to mention that the F can handle a wider range of EVs and can also meter for strobe in addition to daylight. Also, the Minolta meters look a lot less like a handgun, so you're much less likely to face scrutiny (or worse) by the police.

Mr Bill · Jul 26, 2022

spl said:
Well, being a poor man myself,...

Hi, something similar that you might wanna try is known as a zone ruler or zone scale. Essentially it's just a gray step wedge, running from white to some dark shade. You DO have to somehow figure relative differences, in stops (you could probably figure this out via a digital camera). So that you know, for each step, how far it is from a gray card.

You'd use it similarly: look over the top to find a patch that matches something in the scene. Say, for example, that this patch is one stop brighter than a gray card. Then take a meter reading of a gray card and make the one-stop correction.

Bill Burk · Jul 26, 2022

@wiltw posted this visual of exactly what David Vestal was saying…

Orienting a gray card changes its appearance enough to make the idea practical.

Light meters with reflective, incident and spot metering

I never disputed why the dome is needed for incident readings and I have pointed out that some situations are best handled using incident readings. +1 I totally agree, because of that some Sekonic meters are made to operate both spot and incident. Still a particular photograher may have...

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Can anyone explain this passage from Vestal/Craft of Photography

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