Can a negative film be processed reversal?

[cinejerk]

Hi
Can a negative color film be processed using a E6 reversal process? If yes what kind of results could be expected?
The film is a color negative 16mm film. Eastman 7291 or 7297.
Just curious if anyone has experimented with this.
Thanks
Dennis

 

[Ian Grant]

There was a thread recently about this. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Welcome to APUG BTW

Ian

 

[2F/2F]

Hi
Can a negative color film be processed using a E6 reversal process? If yes what kind of results could be expected?
Dennis

Yes. It is called cross processing. Other-than-normal results can be expected. Every film is different. A friend just did it with Fuji 160S, and the transparency came back looking underexposed and as if it had been shot through a blue filter. Usually is it used when other-than-normal results are desired, not as an attempt to create a nice and normal transparency from negative film.

It is able to be done with motion film as well, if it is an E-6 process designed for motion film (i.e. with Remjet removal step) and not a standard E-6 process for still film.

 

[cinejerk]

Thanks Ian for the quick response. After reading through that thread I'm not sure I found anything conclusive about this.
Thanks 2F for the reply. I'm not sure if this film has rem-jet. I'll have to check the kodak site.
Yes I didn't really think that the result would be perfect. Just was wondering if the result would be more or less positive.
I wonder if this type of film has that orange mask like standard still film?

 

[Photo Engineer]

All Kodak color negative films and internegative films have an orange mask. All interpositive and print films do not but use a similar negative process.

Negative films will give a low contrast orange positive image in E6 but print films will give a high contrast positive image in E6 with no mask.

Some films have rem-jet and some do not. Running films with rem-jet through an E6 process will ruin the chemistry and all films following in the process will be badly marred by the specks of rem-jet they accumulate from the solutions. This will make your processing lab very upset with you!

PE

 

[jd callow]

2F is correct with regard to producing a positive with negative film (c41) using E6 chemistry. I have done it with a handfull of non-cine films just to see if I thought it had potential. My experience is that the film needs to be 'overexposed' by as much as 4 or 5 stops (each film will be different) to get a decent transparency. Push processing doesn't work as the slides go from a bad cast without pushing to bad cast with really bad crossover (colour contaminated highlights) when pushed. Initially I thought that pushing would get me the contrast required and that over exposure would flatten the soon the to be slid image. I found that overexposure was the only way to go. The only crossed c41 to e6 film I liked was the kodak chromogenic b&w films. Pushed between 4 and 5 stops the film produces a very creamy slide with a very cool (cyan) cast.

I have no knowledge of Eastman 7291 or 7297 or any crossprocessing of cine film. If it is in fact c41 film I would think it would respond like any c41 film in e6 chems and require some experimentation.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Since many Cine films use CD3 for the color developer, they would cross process in E6 better than true C41 films which use CD4. This developing agent difference is important in proper dye hue and crossover.

However, you cannot get the dmax and contrast out of C41 or any negative film in a reversal process. They are what are called "coupler limited" to give good image structure. E6 films are "coupler excess" and rely on the color developer and first developer to limit contrast and dmax. For example, E6 uses citrazinic acid to limit color dmax.

PE

 

[cinejerk]

Thanks guys
I think these films are listed as for the ECN-2 process. What ever that is.
I don't know if that uses CD3 or CD4 for color developer.

 

[srs5694]

ECN-2 is the standard process for motion picture films, as used by Hollywood for its movies, vs. C-41, which is standard for color print still photography. ECN-2 and E-6 slide processes both use CD-3, whereas C-41 uses CD-4. AFAIK, all ECN-2 films have a rem-jet backing, so if you plan to process this yourself, you should research how to remove it and/or plan on using the chemistry one-shot. As noted by others, if a film with a rem-jet backing goes through a commercial processor that's not designed for it, that will cause problems, so don't give it to a lab unless they understand what it is.

 

[2F/2F]

Some films have rem-jet and some do not. Running films with rem-jet through an E6 process will ruin the chemistry and all films following in the process will be badly marred by the specks of rem-jet they accumulate from the solutions. This will make your processing lab very upset with you!

PE

No one is suggesting to give ECN-2 film to a still photo lab to be run in E-6 still process as if it was still film. In fact, I specifically said to process with the E-6 motion film process, and not the E-6 still process when I said, "It is able to be done with motion film as well, if it is an E-6 process designed for motion film (i.e. with Remjet removal step) and not a standard E-6 process for still film."

There are still some E-6 motion films, such as 7280 (64-speed tungsten) and 7285 (100-speed daylight), and labs run 7240 (VNF-1 reversal process) through E-6 as well. A professional motion film processing lab will be able to cross process for you, either neg. to pos. or pos. to neg. If a lab is putting an ECN-2 film through an E-6 motion film process, they already know what you are up to and will not be mad. The trick is to go to a GOOD lab where people really know what they are doing and will not give you the runaround or mess up their chemicals due to their own stupidity and then try to blame you.

As I mentioned before, it can be, and IS done, but it is not done in the pursuit of "normal" results. I alluded to the idea that you probably want to overexpose your film if you intend to do this (and possibly filter it warmer), and J.D. Callow was more exact with regards to how many stops, etc.

 

[Domin]

I've actually processed a couple of negatives in E6. The results differ quite a lot depending on film. Some have orange cast from mask while other have blue/cyan. Some work well at box speed and some need overexposure and/or push. The latitude is rather low, dmin high and dmax low.

I can probably dig up some notes and examples if anyone is interested. However the OP asked about cine film which is bit different.

 

[cinejerk]

Yes I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my original post that I was talking about cine film.
Didn't know that cine negative film was so different than still negative.
No wonder there is such a lot of cine negative film out there. I guess it can't be used in still processes.;-(
And I can't use it because I don't have access to ECN-2 chemistry.

 

[nickandre]

You'll have to remove the remjet backing. Fuji offers a reversal process with removal of remjet for their Single8 film. IDK what type of film that is but I assume it would be compatible.

 

[srs5694]

Cine film (ECN-2) can be used in still cameras, but there are significant caveats:

• The rem-jet coating must be removed, which is a hassle for hobbyist darkroom users and a potential threat for commercial C-41 processing equipment.
• It can be processed in ECN-2 (see (there was a url link here which no longer exists)) if you can get the chemicals or mix your own, but contrast is likely to be off. Dale Labs reportedly processes the film commercially for still photographers.
• It can be cross-processed in C-41, but this is a cross process, with all the drawbacks this entails.

Despite these drawbacks, I've seen posts from people who've used the stuff, even cross-processed in C-41, who are happy with the results they get.

A couple decades ago, several companies (Seattle FilmWorks, Dale Labs, and a few others) sold ECN-2 film spooled onto 35mm still-camera cartridges and offered processing. I shot a few rolls of this film in the mid-to-late 1980s, and at the time I was happy with the results. Today I look at the prints and see they're low in contrast, and I wish I'd used standard C-41 film.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Another caveat is that the film is much lower in contrast than still color negative films.

PE

 

[nickandre]

Judging by his icon I think he's shooting motion picture film.

Just buy Ektachrome 100.