Can a Leica Summitar Be Restored?

[Arthurwg]

I would like to buy an uncoated 50mm F2 Summitar lens, but most if not all seem to have damaged, fogged or scratched glass. I wondering if a lens like that can be restored.

 

[__Brian]

It can be- but will be expensive to do. When John Van Stelton offered this service, it cost $200 to have my collapsible Summicron front element polished and coated. He retired. Skyllaney in Scotland would be the one to contact.

 

[beemermark]

Keep looking

 

[ic-racer]

If it is uncoated , that is easy, just polish the scratched surface by hand and be done.

 

[Nitroplait]

You probably have to accept living with imperfections, but a structurally sound sample can be cleaned, if not for all, then some of the haze. Light scratches (on an uncoated version) can be polished out manually without too much effort.
Maybe you should shoot off a mail to a repair tech to get an idea of how much you should set aside for the work.

 

[Tel]

I would like to buy an uncoated 50mm F2 Summitar lens, but most if not all seem to have damaged, fogged or scratched glass. I wondering if a lens like that can be restored.

Since you're looking at an uncoated lens, having it recoated is not necessary. Recoating is expensive because nobody's doing it anymore. The last lens I had stripped and recoated was done by Gevorg Vartanyan in Kiev, and he stopped taking those jobs years ago. The other thing you want to look out for is cemented elements. If there is haze or Schneideritis it might be in the cement between elements, and that will add significantly to the cost, if you can find someone who'll do it. If neither of the above applies, you can polish many defects away. Thanks to encouragement from Dan Daniel, I recently tried polishing with cerium oxide and it worked amazingly well. Slow, but effective--don't expect instant results.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Keep looking

The best advice in the thread.

 

[Nitroplait]

The best advice in the thread.

Or worst. Perfection doesn’t exist.

 

[__Brian]

Or worst. Perfection doesn’t exist.

The Summicron that John Van Stelton worked on came back like new.

The Summitar has a cemented pair for the front element. These can show separation.

You really do not need a lens to be "perfect". Unless you are experiences in polishing glass- could easily make it worse. Best to find one in good condition before purchasing.

The Minolta 5cm F2 in Leica Mount is very close to the Summitar. Instead of cemented groups, it uses air-spaced groups. Hard coated, rigid mount. Has the Summitar signature. Cost under $200 with patience. I paid $260 for a mint condition one 8 years ago, and $125 for one that I needed to clean out the haze on the inner elements last year. There are two versions: 1st batch uses 40.5mm filters, 43mm filters on later batches. These used to sell for 3x what you get them for now, and the Summitar used to sell for under $100.

Minolta Chiyoko 5cm F2- Took one Apart - Rangefinderforum.com

I've seen this lens listed as 7 elements in 4 groups, like a Summitar AND I've seen this lens listed as 7 elements in 6 groups. The early version of the lens takes 40.5mm filters, the later takes 43mm filters. I have a perfect condition late one, no need to take apart. Found a very early one on...

www.rangefinderforum.com

Get the Minolta instead of the Summitar.

 

[matreve]

The Minolta 5cm F2 in Leica Mount is very close to the Summitar. Instead of cemented groups, it uses air-spaced groups.

I do not believe this is accurate. In Minolta's brochure it is shown as a lens with cemented elements.

Also, if the elements in the Super-Rokkor 5cm f/2 were in fact air spaced and not cemented, why would it often be referred to as "close to the Summitar" and not "close to the Summicron" (collapsible version) which has air spaced elements in the same configuration?

 

[Axelwik]

I think the front group can be unscrewed to give access to the elements on both sides of the aperture blades. That's likely where most haze occurs, and haze is usually caused by volitalization of lubricants through the years, which you might be able to remove with alcohol or naphtha (assuming nothing else has "etched" the glass). Just be careful cleaning, as the glass in these older lenses can be pretty soft compared to modern lenses. Not as bad however, as the collapsible Summicron that came directly after.

Of course it's a 7-element lens in 4 groups and you'll only have access to 4 of the 8 glass/air interfaces. Most lenses of this age will have some "defects," but they're not nesscessarily fatal flaws. It it's not too badly damaged put a shade on it and shoot, being careful not to point it toward the sun. The more defects, the more "Leica Glow!"

 

[blee1996]

There are YouTube videos on how to service the Summitar. I did and it was not too hard. The end result is rewarding.

 

[__Brian]

I do not believe this is accurate. In Minolta's brochure it is shown as a lens with cemented elements.

Also, if the elements in the Super-Rokkor 5cm f/2 were in fact air spaced and not cemented, why would it often be referred to as "close to the Summitar" and not "close to the Summicron" (collapsible version) which has air spaced elements in the same configuration?

View attachment 375868

The first two groups are air-spaced doublets.

This is the front group with the fixture taken apart, elements separated, and spacer shown.

https://rangefinderforum.com/threads/minolta-chiyoko-5cm-f2-took-one-apart.4751524/

If you look closely at the diagram from Minolta in the link, you see a Black line for the two air-spaced doublets and a white line for the cemented rear doublet. You also will note that I bought one and took it apart.

The rendering of the Minolta lens is much closer to the Summitar than it is the Summicron. The Summicron used high index of refraction/ low dispersion glass. The original version uses Thoriated glass.

Minolta, wide-open. "Swirlies" like the Summitar.



"Lens Groups are defined as being cemented, air-spaced, and oil-spaced. The Minolta Chiyoko 5cm F2 is a 2-2-2-1: 7 element in 4 groups. The 1st and 2nd doublet are air-spaced groups, the doublet behind the aperture is cemented. Air-spaced doublets allow 4 radii to be used for better control of spherical aberration. As this lens was always coated, the designers apparently felt the extra degree of freedom was worth the extra air/glass interfaces. A second reason to use air-spaced (and oil spaced) groups is to accommodate different coefficients of expansion of glass elements used in the group."

As to the brochure you posted- note the heavy black lines for the two front doublets, and the thin line for the rear doublet. Minolta is showing the air-spacing between the elements, but 70 years later- unless you take one apart you will not know why they did this.

Minolta_Chiyoko_Collection by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

The more common 5cm F2 that uses 43mm filters shown in this picture.

 

[250swb]

If your Summitar has scratches and is already uncoated I urge you to watch this video by Matt Osborne 'Mr Leica'

 

[__Brian]

Note that the element that Matt polished is radioactive- primarily an Alpha emitter. I would not polish this element by hand, given the danger of ingesting the generated dust.

The Summitar- not radioactive. This version of the Summicron: the front element is radioactive.

 

[qqphot]

Summitars aren't particularly rare or expensive and I think it would make more sense to look for one in good shape.

 

[250swb]

Note that the element that Matt polished is radioactive- primarily an Alpha emitter. I would not polish this element by hand, given the danger of ingesting the generated dust.

The Summitar- not radioactive. This version of the Summicron: the front element is radioactive.

Matt's lens is #1021080 which is well after the book stops on radioactive glass at #922072 although there are reports of outliers presumably as Leica used up older lens elements ad hoc as was usual.

 

[__Brian]

I currently have a Radioactive lens in the 104 block and one in the 995 block, and have had two others. These are Thoriated lenses, I cleared the Yellow front element using a UV lamp. Sunlight works, but also dries out the lubricants. The 105 block is safe. I do not know where the "922" number came from, it is wrong based on my first hand experience.

 

[guangong]

Note that the element that Matt polished is radioactive- primarily an Alpha emitter. I would not polish this element by hand, given the danger of ingesting the generated dust.

The Summitar- not radioactive. This version of the Summicron: the front element is radioactive.

What about us little kids after WWII wearing and playing with our Lone Ranger Atomic Bullet Ring?

 

[__Brian]

That's nothing. They used to sell a Lens Cleaning Brush with a radioactive element inside to charge the air coming through it, would repel dust. I do not use mine, but still have it in the box.

As stated- Thoriated glass is not a problem unless you ingest it. A piece of paper will stop the alpha particles.

This is where the bad information about the Serial Number came from:

Radioactive Leica 50mm f2 Collapsible Summicron (M39) good idea as only Lens?

I am a bit lost with what i have read about the radioactive summis. What is the deal with them? Are they more trouble than they are worth because of the browning? How about resale? Do people avoid them?

www.l-camera-forum.com

My later SN Radioactive Thorium Glass Summicron is the same batch as the one in the article, 104 block.

A Radioactive Lens

Between the 1940s and 1970s, a number of camera manufacturers designed lenses employing thoriated glass in one or more elements. Incorporating as much as

petapixel.com

Buying these lenses and taking them apart- much better than reading about them in some book or old brochure. I've known some collectors to leave information out just so they could buy up cameras and lenses that they know are much more valuable. The "Hot-Glass" Summicrons used to be cheap.

 

[Saganich]

Alphas never exist alone in the world. There is an old thread about this.

Collapsible Summicron, how radioaktive is it again...?

Hi Just purchased a beautiful specimen of the old screwmunt Summicron: http://www.ebay.com/itm/282097550920 I plan to use it on a iiif I also just bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/152368074971 It's a little radioactive (beta and gamma, which gamma is the one being emitted out of the lens), but...

www.photrio.com

 

[__Brian]

I'm not too worried about bringing my Two Radioactive Summicrons within close proximity of each other...
But do remember the precautions taken in College Physics Lab about ingesting. The worst I've seen, the idiot that posted a video on how to clean a Radioactive Pentax 50/1.4 by destroying it with a hammer. Dust everywhere, and the idiot was not wearing a mask.

There were a few "Summitar*" lenses that were prototypes of the Summicron. They are very valuable to collectors.

 

[250swb]

Don't ever wear a watch with a luminous dial. We are mostly all already the victims of radiation what with radon gas in your cellar or eating a banana, so what do you want to do, run around screaming waving your arms in the air or get some perspective?

 

[Axelwik]

I guess we should never go outside either - too much solar radiation.

Also I find it funny the people who are afraid of nuclear power stations nearby, but don't worry at all about a coal power station nearby. Not only is the coal power station emitting harmful gases and particulates, but they also emit orders of magnitude more radioactive particles than any normally operating nuke station. There's almost always radioactive elements in coal that, when burned, go into the atmosphere.

 

[__Brian]

Don't open up your watch and eat it, and don't stare directly into the sun for hours at a time.
And don't polish Radioactive Glass or take down Asbestos Siding without proper protection.
Use common sense. a rare attribute these days, about the same as Internet Facts that you can Trust.