Cameras that are more expensive than a Leica

gzinsel · Oct 22, 2014

O.k. I'll bite again.

my first camera was a mamiya c330. with a 55mm, 80mm, and 135mm. I sold it. bought a leica m4 with a cron. at first I loved it- then I shot a folder, a zeiss ikon nettar 4.5 anastigmat- LOVED IT, fell in love with the dreamy oof area and the softness of a triplet. then a bought another folder with a tessar, then I bought a VHR, then I bought fujinon gw69III, then I bought a canon P. I have made 2 LF cameras that I use all the time. as well as the pinhole camera that I have made. BUT I have never looked back at selling my leica which was in 1999. I rarely shot roll film. In fact I think I am going to sell all my roll film cameras. I like LF. nothing against Leica though. It doesn't really fit me.

Old-N-Feeble · Oct 22, 2014

cliveh said:
Shooting with a LEICA is like a long tender kiss, like firing an automatic pistol, like an hour on the analyist's couch. - Henri Cartier-Bresson

Wow... you talk dirty. Now I need to go see my analist.

Hatchetman · Oct 22, 2014

A new Leica and 50mm f1.4 is going to cost about $10,000, which IMO is more than it is worth. But if I had the cash to burn, I'd buy it!

sevo · Oct 23, 2014

Leica is marketing to a luxury niche nowadays, plus the very small set of photographers that can and will buy a full format digital rangefinder at any cost. It is a bit unfair comparing their current pricing, or their past collectibles. A plain old M6 or M4-P is not outrageously priced compared to other film cameras cherished by hobbyists (like the Makina or Hasselblad) . That past pro cameras like the Sinar P or Fuji GX680 now sell cheaper than a Leica is a separate issue - these were much more expensive when new, and are currently selling much below value.

250swb · Oct 23, 2014

Just about any modern camera is more expensive than a 35mm Leica. Over a few years of swapping camera systems for the next best thing to make their pictures look good most enthusiast photographers will have lost far more in depreciation than the cost of a Leica. So jumping from Nikon to Canon to Sony to Panasonic etc., and buying lenses and accessories, isn't buying a cheaper system. And lets not forget that a Leica body and lens only really depreciates for the first user, then prices stabilise, and even for the first user they can get to the point longer term when their lenses become more valuable than the price they paid.

Steve

Xmas · Oct 23, 2014

Hi

Something seems to have slipped...
Leica ma(ke/de)

film M rangefinders (still)
dig M rangefinders
'compact digitals'
and large sensor cameras

many of their last century cameras [and lenses] are still in use [e.g. on Ricoh GXR]

A good user M4-2 body is about 250-350 GBP a user Cosina Voightlander 35 /2.5 150 GBP, both from brick shops not much different from a FM2n and series E 35mm.

This is APUG who buys new film cameras or D cameras on APUG?

M4-2 are normal film Leicas just as slow to load as a M-A or MP or M7... The Leica lenses are very variable...

Noel

film_man · Oct 23, 2014

Xmas said:
This is APUG who buys new film cameras or D cameras on APUG?

I didn't know APUG is limited to stingy old farts who live in the past.

miha · Oct 23, 2014

Xmas said:
Hi

A good user M4-2 body is about 250-350 GBP

Noel

Where?

darkosaric · Oct 23, 2014

miha said:
Where?

In this Leica shop you can find many M bodies for 400-500€ (need to look for some longer time, they are gone quickly), this is an official Leica dealer, excellent shop:

http://www.meister-camera.com/hamburg/index.php?id=1

You have one in Berlin, and one in Hamburg. Form time to time you can find even cheaper.

miha · Oct 23, 2014

Hi Darko, I know Meister as I have bought a lens or two from them in the past. Still, apart form a broken M5 and a M2 in need for a CLA, they don't offer anything in that range, let alone for GBP 250.

darkosaric · Oct 23, 2014

miha said:
Hi Darko, I know Meister as I have bought a lens or two from them in the past. Still, apart form a broken M5 and a M2 in need for a CLA, they don't offer anything in that range, let alone for GBP 250.

Right now no, but you should keep an eye on it for some time and good buy will come. Also good and not expensive Leica shop is:

http://www.photohaus.de/

But Photohaus don't put every Leica body online, much more bodies and lenses are physically in the shop.

Edit: recently Photohaus had Leica (or Minolta?) CL, 28mm, 40mm and 90mm set for less than 1000€. It was gone very quickly /&/(

Xmas · Oct 23, 2014

miha said:
Where?

My M4-2 was £325 in 2009 from

http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/m-bodies/5856-leica-m4-2-black-body.html

film 'good users' seem to have slipped in value relative to collectors

a 'good user' is another term for beaten up, you need to wait for an ex pro camera to appear. The M4-2 is not badly dinked just lotsa scars and greyed black chrome, the steel gears are so worn they are smooth like brass.

Most people only buy mint or ex plus...

My M3 was a private sale at £350 after a rebuild at CRR Luton (I got the CRR receipts/warrenty) its strap lug had failed in mid air... previous owner could not retain a dinked M... think he has a M9 now.

miha · Oct 23, 2014

I know them too, plus a few others. On average good users go for around €600 - 700.

p.s. I'm an R user, still I might go for a beaten up M someday.

p.p.s Noel, CRR seems busy 24/7?

darkosaric · Oct 23, 2014

Right now on Meister Camera Hamburg you have M3 for 400€. If I am looking for a M Leica body - I would buy this.

miha · Oct 23, 2014

Sorry I can't find it. Ther is one for 499 plus another 300 for service: "Verschuss gereinigt und justiert" 1/1000 sec ungenau

darkosaric · Oct 23, 2014

Here is M3 for 399

miha · Oct 23, 2014

Thanks, the first in row, I somehow missed it Literally beaten up I would say.

Xmas · Oct 23, 2014

film_man said:
I didn't know APUG is limited to stingy old farts who live in the past.

Ok but APUG is a forum for people who live in the past, and take photos still using film? I can burn off 36 exposures in 3 minutes normally, perhaps you are on wrong forum?
The new Leicas {post M4/M5} have zinc top plates and back doors that can dissappear! The MP (and M7) reverted to brass top plate for the 'fondlers' (a prejorative term), and to rangefinders that worked see next.
Post M3 the finders were simplified, e.g. M6s can be impossible to use in gigs with Fresnels and spots.
If you only want to take photos and dont use an on camera meter an M4-2 is an ok camera, it will take a clip on meter linked to speed dial, if you must.
Most of the time I use single coated LTM lenses for a stop of extra dynamic range, and even Canon Ps cause I can reload one as I walk...
Until '59 Leica outsold Canon (although the Canon was 1/3 the price), then Canon did a cheap model the Canon P and sold 100k of in three years and as they say they did not look back, same rangefinder, better build quality. A used Canon P is a lots cheaper then a M4-2
When a new fangled M9 breaks it 'disappears' to Solms for some time, In past I walked round the corner to Mortimer street and they fixed it while i looked at glossy leaflets. Nowdays 'any' black smith can fix an old M or Barnack.

darkosaric · Oct 23, 2014

miha said:
Thanks, the first in row, I somehow missed it Literally beaten up I would say.

Those kind of Leicas are my favorite - ugly and beaten up (=cheap), but in working condition. I got my M3 3 years ago, looks also ugly, but it works like a charm, without any CLA or anything.

Xmas · Oct 23, 2014

miha said:
I know them too, plus a few others. On average good users go for around 600 - 700.

p.s. I'm an R user, still I might go for a beaten up M someday.

p.p.s Noel, CRR seems busy 24/7?

Yes they are cause they are good and reliable but if you send your camera with a cheque for one of their pro forma repairs you get a quick repair...

Zorro

miha · Oct 23, 2014

Thanks, good to know.

Xmas · Oct 23, 2014

miha said:
Thanks, good to know.

If you are/were in London Red Dots repair guy is good easy to drop off and pick up.
Noel

miha · Oct 23, 2014

Last time in '95 I'm afraid.

DanielOB · Oct 23, 2014

Leica (and CarlZeiss-ZF too) lens will make more "crisp" image, more clear details than other lenses. With good film and developer choice the image compete with 6x7 film combined with Rodenstock or Schneder lens.
The quality of Leica camera-body is that it can use Leica lenses, plus shutter and film revinding sound quality. That is all.
Does it worth money? To some yes to some no. If you are around art-potential photography yes, otherwise no.

Pioneer · Oct 23, 2014

DanielOB said:
Leica (and CarlZeiss-ZF too) lens will make more "crisp" image, more clear details than other lenses. With good film and developer choice the image compete with 6x7 film combined with Rodenstock or Schneder lens.
The quality of Leica camera-body is that it can use Leica lenses, plus shutter and film revinding sound quality. That is all.
Does it worth money? To some yes to some no. If you are around art-potential photography yes, otherwise no.

Leica and Carl Zeiss have designed and built some wonderful lenses but any 35mm film you shoot will not be stacking up against 6x7 roll film shot through any decent lens. The lens may be producing a sharper image to begin with but on that tiny, postage stamp, piece of film it has to be sharp to withstand the enlargement it requires to produce a decent sized print. But by the time you have enlarge it that much it will not compare favorable against a good print from 6x7 film.

Sorry. Film size still matters.

Cameras that are more expensive than a Leica

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