camera shutters and capturing motion

Camerarabbit · Jul 28, 2020

hello! i am currently working on a project where i am shooting while in motion (on a bike) and am looking to achieve results similiar to lartigue's iconic photos of people driving - https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/283256 - and fusco's rfk funeral train series - https://www.magnumphotos.com/arts-culture/paul-fusco-rfk/ - where the subject/center of the frame is still/sharp while the surrounding areas are a bit blurred, giving the image a sense of motion.

i'm think i need to shoot at a slower shutter speed, like around 1/60th, and that i need to educate myself on shutters and how they affect the depiction of movement i.e. - does a vertical traveling shutter or horizontal traveling shutter elongate movement, or would a leaf shutter do this?

i'm hoping to shoot the project with one of my 35mm cameras, but am open to buying a new camera if there is a type of shutter out there that i dont already have and that would be beneficial. i have a nikon one touch (point and shoot), a contax g2, and contax 139 quartz, and a canon rebel 2000. i also have a mamiya 7, but would prefer to use 35mm since the ratio of shooting to good photos is embarrassing.

thanks, i look forward to hearing your comments!!

Pflaumesaft · Jul 28, 2020

Lartigue's photo's are most likely from horizontal shutters. With vertical, you'll end up with choppy photos for horizontal movement..

Camerarabbit · Jul 28, 2020

i made a dropbox with 3 folders - one that shows the kind of photo i'm trying to create, one where the photo is too sharp/doesnt give a sense of motion, and one that has images that are too blurry to read: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ucl08i4vbrepyim/AAD-8g4HqDtnbc9kMOWmrWYja?dl=0

if anyone has ideas regarding shutter speed as well, i'm all ears! thanks

MattKing · Jul 28, 2020

In the case of Paul Fusco's train photos, what you see is probably a result of the combination of the train moving and the photographer moving to partially compensate for that movement.
Fusco was using Kodachrome - most likely 64ASA, but maybe ASA 25 - so shutter speeds would not have been high.
And he was using a Leica rangefinder, so a horizontally moving cloth shutter.
By the way, Mr. Fusco passed away this last week.

Camerarabbit · Jul 28, 2020

Pflaumesaft said:
Lartigue's photo's are most likely from horizontal shutters. With vertical, you'll end up with choppy photos for horizontal movement..

thank you! can you rec some good 35mm cameras with horizontal shutters?

Camerarabbit · Jul 28, 2020

MattKing said:
In the case of Paul Fusco's train photos, what you see is probably a result of the combination of the train moving and the photographer moving to partially compensate for that movement.
Fusco was using Kodachrome - most likely 64ASA, but maybe ASA 25 - so shutter speeds would not have been high.
And he was using a Leica rangefinder, so a horizontally moving cloth shutter.
By the way, Mr. Fusco passed away this last week.

Thank you! I know, saw in the NY Times, his photos inspired this series !

Camerarabbit · Jul 28, 2020

MattKing said:
In the case of Paul Fusco's train photos, what you see is probably a result of the combination of the train moving and the photographer moving to partially compensate for that movement.
Fusco was using Kodachrome - most likely 64ASA, but maybe ASA 25 - so shutter speeds would not have been high.
And he was using a Leica rangefinder, so a horizontally moving cloth shutter.
By the way, Mr. Fusco passed away this last week.

And can you rec any cameras with a horizontal traveling shutter that isnt a Leica / wont break the bank?

MattKing · Jul 28, 2020

When you think about the situation, you will realize that the train would have been moving in a straight line, while Paul Fusco would have been essentially panning with the subject by rotating in order to track the centre of his field of view.
You definitely want to use a rangefinder or prism equipped TLR if you want to try this!

reddesert · Jul 29, 2020

In Lartigue's famous photo of the race-car, the car wheel is elongated one way while the spectator is tilted the other way (backwards). This is clearly because Lartigue was panning the camera during the exposure - if he hadn't been panning the camera, the spectator would be vertical. The car wheel is elongated because he didn't pan fast enough to keep up with the car exactly.

From the elongations it is generally known that Lartigue was using a camera with a vertically traveling focal plane shutter. This is one place where a picture, or better an animation, really is worth a thousand words, and thankfully somebody posted a really nice animation of how it works to the LF photography forum. See https://www.largeformatphotography....p?31903-Jacques-Henri-Lartigue-and-his-camera

shutterfinger · Jul 29, 2020

CameronRabbit said:
And can you rec any cameras with a horizontal traveling shutter that isnt a Leica / wont break the bank?

Just about any SLR or rangefinder 35mm camera from the 1960's and 1970's with a top shutter speed of 1/1000 will have a cloth horizontal travel shutter.
Panning technique will give you the results you want whether the camera you're using has a horizontal or vertical travel shutter but it will take some practice to refine the technique. The ability to select aperture and shutter speed are the only requirements of the tool you use to get the photos you want. A camera is a tool and nothing more.

grain elevator · Jul 29, 2020

reddesert said:
In Lartigue's famous photo of the race-car, the car wheel is elongated one way while the spectator is tilted the other way (backwards). This is clearly because Lartigue was panning the camera during the exposure - if he hadn't been panning the camera, the spectator would be vertical. The car wheel is elongated because he didn't pan fast enough to keep up with the car exactly.

From the elongations it is generally known that Lartigue was using a camera with a vertically traveling focal plane shutter. This is one place where a picture, or better an animation, really is worth a thousand words, and thankfully somebody posted a really nice animation of how it works to the LF photography forum. See https://www.largeformatphotography....p?31903-Jacques-Henri-Lartigue-and-his-camera

Exactly. I'd start with the Contax G2, vertical shutter and as MattKing hinted, the viewfinder not blacking out like on an SLR is probably helpful fur panning, although lots of successful panning has been done with SLRs.

Camerarabbit · Jul 29, 2020

grain elevator said:
Exactly. I'd start with the Contax G2, vertical shutter and as MattKing hinted, the viewfinder not blacking out like on an SLR is probably helpful fur panning, although lots of successful panning has been done with SLRs.

Thank you! And if I'm riding my bike and photographing a person, which shutter speed would you aim for - 1/60th or 1/125th?

Camerarabbit · Jul 29, 2020

shutterfinger said:
Just about any SLR or rangefinder 35mm camera from the 1960's and 1970's with a top shutter speed of 1/1000 will have a cloth horizontal travel shutter.
Panning technique will give you the results you want whether the camera you're using has a horizontal or vertical travel shutter but it will take some practice to refine the technique. The ability to select aperture and shutter speed are the only requirements of the tool you use to get the photos you want. A camera is a tool and nothing more.

Thank you! If I'm riding my bike and photographing a person, which shutter speed would you aim for - 1/60th or 1/125th?

Donald Qualls · Jul 29, 2020

Okay, just a non-photographic question here. Are you seriously considering riding a bicycle in New York City and trying to frame photos through a viewfinder while in motion?

If so, where should we send flowers?

Think it through -- this is a very, very unsafe activity. Can you shoot from a taxi while someone else drives, perhaps?

Camerarabbit · Jul 29, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Okay, just a non-photographic question here. Are you seriously considering riding a bicycle in New York City and trying to frame photos through a viewfinder while in motion?

If so, where should we send flowers?

Think it through -- this is a very, very unsafe activity. Can you shoot from a taxi while someone else drives, perhaps?

Good point. Maybe I'll just shoot from the hip and not look through the camera.

MattKing · Jul 29, 2020

Donald is a very wise man .
Unless of course you are on the back of a bicycle built for two .
The reason to prefer a rangefinder over an SLR is that the viewfinder blacks out as you take your photo with an SLR, which at the very least complicates panning while shooting.
I wouldn't surprise me if Paul Fusco was using shutter speeds longer than 1/60 second - say 1/4 second. He was an extremely experienced photographer, so would have had lots of practice photographing with slow speed film (Kodachrome II/X or Kodachrome 25/64) in marginal light.

cramej · Jul 29, 2020

reddesert said:
In Lartigue's famous photo of the race-car, the car wheel is elongated one way while the spectator is tilted the other way (backwards). This is clearly because Lartigue was panning the camera during the exposure - if he hadn't been panning the camera, the spectator would be vertical. The car wheel is elongated because he didn't pan fast enough to keep up with the car exactly.

From the elongations it is generally known that Lartigue was using a camera with a vertically traveling focal plane shutter. This is one place where a picture, or better an animation, really is worth a thousand words, and thankfully somebody posted a really nice animation of how it works to the LF photography forum. See https://www.largeformatphotography....p?31903-Jacques-Henri-Lartigue-and-his-camera

^This. A horizontal travel shutter wouldn't give the same effect while panning. In addition, Latrigue would had to have panned slightly slower or faster than the car to achieve the distortion depending on whether the shutter traveled up or down.

When panning, shutter speed is greatly dependent on the distance from the subject and the speed of the subject for the desired effect. When the subject is near, a faster shutter speed can be used because you're panning across the background at a greater rotational velocity. When the subject is far, the shutter speed needs to be slower to be able to get motion blur in the background. I would say that, generally, for non-engine powered objects like people and animals, 1/30 or slower is required.

CameronRabbit said:
Good point. Maybe I'll just shoot from the hip and not look through the camera.

Please don't -- for your own good. How in the world are you going to focus, shoot from the hip and pan accurately all while riding a bike? First of all, well.....I shouldn't need to explain that. Second, you really need to see what your photographing and be able to match it's speed while panning. Whether it's a rangefinder or SLR really doesn't matter. You can use either, though somewhere around 99.99999999% of sports and action photographers use a SLR.

jimjm · Jul 29, 2020

CameronRabbit said:
And can you rec any cameras with a horizontal traveling shutter that isnt a Leica / wont break the bank?

Consider one of the Voigtlander Bessa 35mm rangefinders, listed here and here.. All have vertical-travel copal shutters and were made in M-mount or Leica screw-mount versions.

Donald Qualls · Jul 29, 2020

Several older 35mm SLRs have horizontal traveling shutters -- my Spotmatic SP is one, as I recall. I was surprised to see that, because my previous one, an Exa II, had a vertical shutter travel, and all my newer M42 bodies have the vertical Copal Square metal leaf focal plane shutter.

Pieter12 · Jul 29, 2020

Not sure what you are trying to do but for objects in motion, use a slow shutter speed (1/30th or slower for example, it really depends on the relative direction of travel and the focal length of the lens) and panning with the moving subject to keep the subject in the same position in the viewfinder. Takes some practice--I would suggest practicing taking photos of cars in traffic using a digital camera to refine your technique for the effect you want. Of course if you want the subject to have some motion blur and the background sharp, still use a slow sutter speed and hold the camera steady or on a tripod.

Pieter12 · Jul 29, 2020

Forgot to post an example:

ic-racer · Jul 29, 2020

educate myself on shutters and how they affect the depiction of movement

You won't see any difference with a 35mm camera; horizontal, vertical, leaf, guillotine, all the same, unless you are using flash. When using flash, the synch speed of different shutters will be important in determining motion blur.

The Lartigue photo is probably done with the fastest speed the camera allowed and there is not much motion blur, and a small slit is needed for the effect.

John Koehrer · Jul 29, 2020

The earlier photos were done with an ICA camera that had a vertical travel shutter and used 4X5 film and pretty slow at that. ruling out an SLR isn't necessary.
Use what you have first. You can get the motion just shooting people walking across your picture and panning with or opposite direction they're walking.
Doing this riding a bike in NY may be part of a death wish a because the camera has to pivot to follow the subject. Not watching traffic
With an SLR. just look over the camera; Lartigue obviously looking through the lens when he took these.

I tried panning with a Hasselblad back in the '70's at Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin at a Formula 1 race. But was getting sharp subject, blurred background(leaf shutter)
like the frame above. Using a widelux 35mm camera you could compress or exaggerate the length/width of the moving subject.
I was pretty lucky with regard to being able to borrow some unusual toys from the store I worked at in those years.

A Speed Graphic using 4X5 film would be the same experience 'ol henri had. Then change film holder. Oh boy!

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 29, 2020

One way I could think of is shoot with a very slow shutter speed for the blur and use a strobe with a short burst to stop motion.

https://www.broncolor.us/2013/11/lindsay-adler-mixing-constant-light-and-studio-strobes/

Pieter12 · Jul 29, 2020

Mainecoonmaniac said:
One way I could think of is shoot with a very slow shutter speed for the blur and use a strobe with a short burst to stop motion.

https://www.broncolor.us/2013/11/lindsay-adler-mixing-constant-light-and-studio-strobes/

A bit hard to do on location, much less on a bicycle--if you survive. But if the camera you use is a newer one and you can adjust the strobe sync to "late", you can get that effect with a slow shutter speed and on-camera speedlight.

camera shutters and capturing motion

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