Camera recommendations

jtlns · Dec 30, 2015

Hi everyone,

Since I got the hang of shooting & developing 35mm film, I've been thinking about medium format film (mainly to experience the larger negatives, thus higher quality). Since medium format cameras can become quite expensive I'm really wondering what would be a good first camera. Can you make some recommendations based on the following "parameters"?

- it should have a built-in meter (I don't like the idea of using an external meter)
- interchangeable lenses or backs is not required
- format is not that important, but I'd prefer 6X6-ish
- type of camera is not that important, but TLR-style appeals me
- being affordable is a must (I'm not a pro)

Thanks for your advice!
Jan

BMbikerider · Dec 30, 2015

Med format is no where as expensive as it once was. What you have to look out for are cameras/lenses that have been used professionally, they could be close to the end of their life. Be very picky, when looking, the cosmetic condition can be a useful guide as to how these have been used, pro use cameras have a hard life. Most Pro's have abandoned them for digital.

It isn't only the camera, a number of medium format models have interchangable backs and these can have problems with light leaks which won't be apparent without putting a film through. Seals can be replaced but they are something which will add to the cost. Built in meters are not (usually) as as accurate as those in 35mm (but not bad nevertheless). Most med format have the meters in a prism which adds to the weight. Personally I don't like using a prism on med format. Using a med format, I think is better used in a slow and deliberate manner, not like a 35mm with a motordrive. A good spot meter is both acurate and quick. Looking at the image from above can be revelation.

Look at Bronica SQ, ETRSi, Pentax 67, (Big and heavy but has a built in prism with a meter). Mamiya (all models) there is a Mamiya twin lens reflex with interchangeable lenses. Pentax and Contax have 645 models both with built in prisms and meters, but are on the expensive end of what is available.

Don't buy one without looking at it first and see if you can get on with the different handling.

Good luck

samhuwyler · Dec 30, 2015

Hi Jan

Just made the switch from 35mm to MF. I got a Yashica mat 124g for about 200$ in mint condition.
I love shooting with it and it's a fun way to get into MF.
Would totally recommend it.

Cheers
sam

David Brown · Dec 30, 2015

jtlns said:
- it should have a built-in meter
6X6-ish
TLR-style
- being affordable is a must (I'm not a pro)

YashicaMat 124G

Slixtiesix · Dec 30, 2015

The wish for a built-in meter will make this endeavor unnecessarily expensive. TLR-style 6x6 camera with built-in meter: The Rolleiflex GX and FX come to my mind. The GX will set you back one grand, the FX even more. Older Rolleis have photoelectric selenium meters, but I would not bet on their reliability today, though some are reported still working. My advice would be to get a Yashica Mat or Rolleicord, maybe even Rolleiflex T if your budget allows.

jtlns · Dec 30, 2015

"The wish for a built-in meter will make this endeavor unnecessarily expensive."

Sorry for the n00b questions, but how do you take a photo without having a built-in meter? How would the "process" look like? (e.g. you need to hold the meter where you subject will be?) And how expensive is a light meter, any recommendations?

Chrismat · Dec 30, 2015

I have found that meters on tlrs like the Yashica aren't that accurate, at least the ones I have owned. Speaking of Yashica, get the regular Yashicamat 124, they were built with less plastic. You can get an accurate hand held meter for a good price. You can even save some more money by using the meter on your 35mm camera.

I have a Pentax 6X7 with the optional metered prism, but it adds a lot of weight so I only use it with a tripod.

samhuwyler · Dec 30, 2015

jtlns said:
"The wish for a built-in meter will make this endeavor unnecessarily expensive."

Sorry for the n00b questions, but how do you take a photo without having a built-in meter? How would the "process" look like? (e.g. you need to hold the meter where you subject will be?) And how expensive is a light meter, any recommendations?

learn the Sunny 16 rule.

...or you could get an hand held meter.
Then you can either meter the reflected or the incident light.
When you want to meter reflected light, stand by your camera, point your meter towards the subject and set your camera according to your meter. That's what cameras do with a build in meter.
When you want the readings for incident light, hold your meter where the subject is and point it towards the camera. Now you have the readings for that exact spot. This method is more accurate and in combination with "zone metering" you can create the picture you imaged. (Not saying that it isn't possible to create the same with reflected light metering but it's harder (for me))

I'm sure google can explain it a little more detailed. ^^

I got myself a Gossen Pilot for about 10 bucks and am happy with it.

sagai · Dec 30, 2015

jtlns said:
"The wish for a built-in meter will make this endeavor unnecessarily expensive."

Sorry for the n00b questions, but how do you take a photo without having a built-in meter? How would the "process" look like? (e.g. you need to hold the meter where you subject will be?) And how expensive is a light meter, any recommendations?

I have just moved to the group of guys religiously using a light meter.
I do not regret it for a second.

It makes an immense increase in exposure correctness having an incident light meter. Mine is a sekonic l308-s after much debate due to it was cost me more or less the same sum as my TLR.

All I see by now are properly exposed negs.

ChristopherCoy · Dec 30, 2015

jtlns said:
"The wish for a built-in meter will make this endeavor unnecessarily expensive."

Sorry for the n00b questions, but how do you take a photo without having a built-in meter? How would the "process" look like? (e.g. you need to hold the meter where you subject will be?) And how expensive is a light meter, any recommendations?

You take a photo with a hand held meter, the same way you do with a TTL meter.... you press the shutter button. The difference in the two styles is you have an extra instrument if you have a hand held meter.

With a TTL meter, the camera meters the light, you make your adjustments to your shutter and aperture, and then you take the pic.
With a hand held meter, you hold the meter near your subject and take a reading, then make adjustments to your shutter and aperture, and then you take the pic.

It's really not any more difficult, and it doesn't really take that much longer. Its just a different process.

The price of a light meter depends on what kind of meter you get. Older analog meters will be cheaper, and newer digital or spot meters will be more expensive.

I picked up a Seikonic L-308B a fea years ago for $50 or so... and they can be found relatively cheap. Like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sekonic-Fla...199564?hash=item3d0d1fe6cc:g:GPQAAOSwo3pWgWVm

R.Gould · Dec 30, 2015

Learn to use a hand held meter, not that difficult, point the meter towards the subject, holding the meter pointing slightly downwards to slightly exclude the sky and, mostly press a button and read the exposure, that frees up your choice of cameras, A nice rolleicord, say a Va or Vb Tlr, or a good old folder, and you are away, If you can get a Weston Master meter, either a Master V or a Euromaster, the 2 was still in production until a few years ago and I have found that even the older ones are still accurate, I have both a Euromaster and Master v, and checked against a Sekonic that I use for flash metering in the studio they are accurate to within 1/3 of a stop, if you read the instruction booklet, either available on line or bought with a meter then that will teach you more about exposure than anything else.
I use MF cameras from Rolleiflex and cord to folders from the 40's and they all take great photos,pin sharp, but none of my MF cameras are metered, they are all fixed lens, but I personally prefer them to my Bronica, which I also have but rarely use, the great thing is that all you have to carry is a camera, a couple of filters and some film,
Richard

sagai · Dec 30, 2015

For the OP, having a read of Ansel Adams trilogy would be an asset, to put all these into context prior buying a MF rig.
Also, to understand the inherent incorrectness of the built in light metering compared to incident light metering will give more freedom to your camera selection.

markbarendt · Dec 30, 2015

jtlns said:
- it should have a built-in meter (I don't like the idea of using an external meter)

It is your choice but if you carry a smart phone you are essentially carrying an external meter already, just install an app.

That opens your world to really cool cameras like YashicaMats and RollieFlexs.

ChristopherCoy · Dec 30, 2015

markbarendt said:
It is your choice but if you carry a smart phone you are essentially carrying an external meter already, just install an app.

That opens your world to really cool cameras like YashicaMats and RollieFlexs.

I plumb forgot about my meter app!

I have Pocket Light Meter on my iPhone and I've used it in the past with great success!

jeffreyg · Dec 30, 2015

Plus 1 on the phone app. I use a spot meter and always traveled with a backup meter. I have a light meter app which is very accurate as a backup instead of carrying the extra meter. Also, I take a shot with the phone wherever I am photographing because the GPS records the location so taking a pad and pen is no longer necessary. You can also record any other notes.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Dave Ludwig · Dec 30, 2015

Some years back I was between buying and Mamiya RB or RZ and a Bronica GS1, I went with the GS1 with the AE metered prism, it is smaller than the RB and easy to hand hold. I never looked back. The price was 450. Since then I also bought a Toyo (Graphic) Super Speed Graphic 4x5 also hand held. This can be used as a rangefinder or through the back focus, no meter but have an old Gossen Luna Pro for general light and also have a Pentax 1 degree spot meter for critical metering. the super speed graphic cost 80 bucks and needed a new bellows and came with no lens, a shoot ready graphic with a lens may cost about 2-300 with a lens. these cameras were built for press photographers and well built.

Reason I was sold on the GS1 was the shutter is in the lens reducing vibration when shooting, the RB/RZ have the shutter and mirror in the camera body. I looked at the Pentax 6x7 and would also be one to consider but then I saw how much the lenses cost. If you wanted to go with a Bronica SQ 6x6 check and see if they also have the shutter in the lens, not sure. Granted having the shutter in the lens means if there is a problem with the shutter that lens will be down, but as you collect other lenses you can still use, An in body shutter goes down the whole camera is down.

Now some will say the GS1 does not have many lenses available compared with the RB/RZ and you will find they have 50, 60, 80, 100, 150, 200, & 250MM, they also made a 500 but have never seen one for sale. My GS1 came with the 80mm which came out just before the company was sold and production stopped. Typically the 80mm is not found, didn't make many and those who have will hang onto them but if you went this direction and ever find one I highly recommend getting one. it's like shooting 135 with a 35 or 40mm, slit more angle.

Some examples of GS1 and 4x5 on my website. Old clown was 35mm, Trees,old barn and ice were 4x5 all others GS1
http://www.ludwigphotographic.com

People here have given you many good options and expect you will get more, suggest you make a list of potentials based on how you will use it and do some investigation. Keep in mind if you go 4x5 and use an enlarger you may need a bigger one. Good Luck and shoot straight and true.

Jeff Bradford · Dec 30, 2015

"Medium Format" is a rather broad category. You will likely try a few things before you find what you like, so don't fret about getting the perfect camera the first time around. I traded all my 6x6 gear for 6x7 gear before I found that 6x9 is where I like to be.

mklw1954 · Dec 30, 2015

If you like manual focus, the original Pentax 645 is an excellent, affordable option. I use that system and a Yashica Mat 124 (non-G) TLR for medium format - both excellent.

markbarendt · Dec 30, 2015

ChristopherCoy said:
I plumb forgot about my meter app!

I have Pocket Light Meter on my iPhone and I've used it in the past with great success!

I still prefer an incident meter, but yes the smartphone apps are darn handy.

HiHoSilver · Dec 30, 2015

JT, I'm glad the guys are talking alot about using an external meter. I'm about a year into MF & the use of an external (uber humble) meter. I just got a new meter yest & can't wait to try. Learning to meter will open ALOT of doors for you in choice of gear and also in your seeing of light in a composition. There are lots of things to read on it. Mark Barendt (sp?), who posted just earlier, wrote an excellent pc on this forum on the topic. While alot of purists don't like the mention of the name, Ken Rockwell has several bits on the topic that opened alot of doors for me. I recently bought an old (1936) MF folder (Super Ikonta). Unlike the 'blad, it has no EV coupling. My $10 meter only reads in EV values. What I learned from Rockwell, enabled me to use the Ikonta with ease, remembering only one EV value's corresponding aperture/speed values. The shots were fine. I learned that what lately is called 'Program' mode on most digitals (and some 35s) - is what the old gear used to have by using a mechanical coupling (EV). One EV = 1 f-stop OR one shutter speed = 1 Zone. It de-mystified alot about exposure and I'm alot more confident/relaxed about it. The only reason I opted for the 'blad or other 'system'-type cameras was lens interchangeability. I passes up what was surely a fabulous camera - a Zeiss Ikon TLR for this reason. When metering isn't an obstacle, you have lots of choices, many of which are very economical and outrageous in their performance. The shots from the Ikonta are different from the 'blad, but in a way that is very pleasing & the blad can't duplicate. For reference, the blad was my first camera that had no meter. I was a bit nervous about it. I'm REALLY glad I didn't let it stop me.

OptiKen · Dec 30, 2015

Side note: A handheld meter is a great conversation starter. I have people 'watch' me using my old cameras but when I pull out my meter and start to take readings, inevitably someone will ask me, "What's that?"

Luis-F-S · Dec 30, 2015

jtlns said:
"The wish for a built-in meter will make this endeavor unnecessarily expensive."

Sorry for the n00b questions, but how do you take a photo without having a built-in meter? How would the "process" look like? (e.g. you need to hold the meter where you subject will be?) And how expensive is a light meter, any recommendations?

You use a hand held meter preferably a spot meter . Outdoors you don't need a meter anyway Kodak publishes the exposure settings with every roll of film on the little piece of paper that everyone throws away.

hsandler · Dec 30, 2015

Sounds like a TLR would be ideal for you, except for the metering part. As others pointed out, getting a TLR with a working meter reduces the pool of candidates tremendously. If you are shooting negative film, even a very cheap handheld light meter, or even a smartphone app, or just estimating, will be fine.

For particular TLR recommendations, just about any of the Japanese TLRs with 4-element lenses, such as Yashica-mat, Ricoh Diacord, or Minolta Autocord, will be great, as well as German Rolleicords. Getting one with a working shutter, and no fungus in the lens is the most important thing.

DWThomas · Dec 30, 2015

Back in 2006 or so when I came back to shooting and processing B&W film, my old meters were in various states of disappointment. So I picked up a Gossen Digisix which does incident and reflected metering, and was something like $120 at the time. It is quite small, and weighs less than two ounces. There is now a Digisix II (which costs more than I think it should) and a Digiflash; the latter does flash metering should you be headed toward that area. I later picked up a used Sekonic L-508 which has variable spot metering, flash and incident metering.

But as mentioned above there are apps, I have a couple on my iPhone. On the bare phone, they only measure reflected light -- but -- surprise, surprise -- there are now widgets with a diffuser dome that snap over the phone to do incident readings; B&H has them these days. I have not indulged, so can't offer firsthand perspective. (I use an Otterbox case, so I suspect the widget might not snap over that.) If mostly wandering around outdoors, taking a reading once, or occasionally an additional one for something where there are important areas in shadow, I find sufficient. You develop a feel for it after some experience. And dare I say, typically the negative films are not that terribly critical; transparency films (which are rapidly disappearing) require a bit more care and precision.

So I admit we are spoiled by the latest generation of cameras that do auto-everything, but the old methods are not the handicap one might expect if one uses them enough to get in practice. In medium format, I have two totally manual -- even separate shutter cocking -- folders (Perkeo II 6x6 and Ercona II 6x9), a Yashica 124g TLR (which currently has a non-functioning meter) and a pile of Bronica SQ-A gear for which I have never bothered to acquire a metering prism. It's all fun!

Alan Gales · Dec 30, 2015

The beauty of a hand held meter is that you can use it with your 35mm cameras, medium format cameras and large format cameras. I use the same Pentax Digital Spot Meter with my big 8x10 and tiny Stereo Realist.

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