Camera (rather than lens) identification

MILKCUP1986 · Aug 28, 2024

Hi
I recently brought what I think is a WW2 camera lens. It has an Air Ministry identification plate screwed to it and is dated 1943. Is it a lens and would it have been used in a aircraft ? . I have attached some photos as it looks to me like there are two different lens, or are they part of the same one ?. I have tried to do some research on line but have not been able to make an identification.
Any help with identification would be much appreciated.
Best regards Danny Jones.

{Moderator's note - thread title revised at OP's request}

Dan Fromm · Aug 28, 2024

Um, that's a camera, not a lens.

MattKing · Aug 28, 2024

Welcome to Photrio Danny.
Dan Fromm has it correct, that is a camera. Would you like us to amend your thread title accordingly ("Camera Identification")?

Dustin McAmera · Aug 28, 2024

I think it's a Thornton Pickard, from the similarity of the brass parts to this Focal-Plane Imperial, at Early Photography:

Focal Plane Imperial - Antique and Vintage Cameras

The tang in the slots of the struts, and the flat key-like tighteners, rather than a knurled knob. Clearly this one isn't focal-plane, but I think the style of those parts should be a reasonable guide to the camera's age. The date of that camera (the one I linked), 1914, is interesting: really old to be acquired by the Ministry in 1943. I even wonder if the brass ID plate is original to the camera; but maybe it got re-catalogued at some time.
Maybe it was used for group photos - a dozen new signallers or navigators passing out of training?

Dustin McAmera · Aug 28, 2024

In fact, Thornton-Pickard made a non focal-plane model of this, the Triple-Extension Imperial. The Science Museum has a half-plate size example. It's not exactly the same; the corner reinforcement of the body is different, but those brass working parts are the same:

Triple Extension "Imperial" Field Camera | Science Museum Group Collection

"Imperial" triple extension half-plate field camera with five plate holders by Thornton-Pickard.

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

Half-plate is 6½x4½ inches, I think. That's the size of the plate that would sit in a wooden holder (like the ones shown with the camera at the Science Museum) and attach where the glass focusing screen is. The screen should be roughly the same size. Without measuring the pictures, I could believe yours is the same size.

The Museum's camera has the little circular maker's plate on one side of the body.

Note the different parts for mounting to a tripod too. Someone has added that metal plate on the bottom of yours.

Dustin McAmera · Aug 28, 2024

I want to know what 'S.I. Type' means...

I think I found out:
I found someone at Flickr who has a Kodak S.I. Mk II Ground Camera, with a plate apparently put on it by Kodak of London (because it includes their name) not by the RAF. A different camera, but similar features; in particular the back able to rack forward. It's essentially the same as a Kodak Specialist, the owner says.

So maybe the Thornton Pickard was pressed into service to do the same job as the Kodak S.I.? Or did S.I. mean something to the RAF, and Kodak named their cameras for it; 'scientific instrument' passed through my head, but I wouldn't want to set one of those up to photograph instrument screens. 'Survey Instrument'?

I also found another one exactly like yours in a finished auction in High Wycombe: 'Ref no. 31' where yours looks like Ref No. 1.

Dustin McAmera · Aug 28, 2024

Here it is in a 1926 Thornton-Pickard catalogue, at Pacific Rim: page 9 boasts that the Imperial has been adopted by the RAF as its Standard Camera for ground work.

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/02377/02377.pdf (41MB pdf!)

So I suppose the Kodak was the new replacement for it by the time of the Second War.
Maybe SI is Standard Instrument?

MILKCUP1986 · Aug 29, 2024

MattKing said:
Welcome to Photrio Danny.
Dan Fromm has it correct, that is a camera. Would you like us to amend your thread title accordingly ("Camera Identification")?

Thank you very much for replying to my post. Could you please amend my title thread for me as I now know I was incorrect in calling the camera a lens. The replies so far have been amazing. You are all so knowledgeable in your passion for photography and cameras.I love the camera and will treasure it with all my other military items that I have collected.

MattKing · Aug 29, 2024

MILKCUP1986 said:
Could you please amend my title thread for me as I now know I was incorrect in calling the camera a lens.

Revised as requested - glad we could assist.

Dustin McAmera · Aug 29, 2024

It would be interesting to see the other end of it. I guess it would have had a Thornton-Pickard shutter unit at the front, with the lens mounted on the front of that. But the lens and shutter may have gone missing (or been sold separately).

Camera (rather than lens) identification

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