Camera problem, maybe? Or photographer problem?

MichiTimm · Nov 19, 2015

I recently bought a Ciro-flex tlr that was dead on arrival. Sent it back and bought another. Did my non-expert inspection and everything seemed in order -- shutter firing on all speeds, B and T settings working properly, aperture ring actually changing the aperture. That's about all I know to do. Ran a roll of film through it. The film is in date, but of sketchy origin. Bought it from somebody on some forum or another or a facebook group or who knows where. So I can't guarantee that it's not the problem. Oh -- yeah there's a problem:

Took it out for a test drive this morning. Brought the film into the local camera shop and got the scans back this afternoon. Of the twelve shots I took today, only six produced an image at all, with five of them being acceptable (I wasn't exactly going for works of art here, just testing a camera to see if it works).

Any guesses from the attached picture of the index card what the problem might be? Intermittent camera error? Intermittent user error? Bad film? Curse of an ancient burial ground?

I'm probably going to keep the camera regardless because I fear I've gone and fallen in love with it, but just wanted to make sure these scans don't show the telltale sign of a camera that's about to self-destruct or something.

Xmas · Nov 19, 2015

You need to look at the negative strips for a diagnostic.
Or take a photo of the strips in front of a table lamp shade with a smart phone.
The negatives strip should show 12 frames for a test I'd normally shoot a brick wall at 1/2 stop steps rather than Answell Adams replicas.

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 19, 2015

Given the rather random nature of it, I'd say it's more likely user error- did you in fact change your aperture between exposures, or your shutter speed? Or did you NOT change your aperture/shutter speed between frames and end up with it being grossly underexposed? Did you in fact trip the shutter on each frame and not just think you did and advance the film without actually making an exposure?

Without observing you using the camera it's hard to say for sure if it is user error or not. The Ciro-Flex is a very simple camera mechanically, and it doesn't have a lot (really any) interlocks that would prevent user error like coupling the shutter cocking to the film advance.

The other possibility is that the shutter and/or aperture are sticking when you fire the shutter. It's not likely that the aperture is not working, as again, it doesn't need to be open for focusing and then stop down when taking.

I'd run another roll of brand new film through it to eliminate any issues with the roll itself (the film isn't likely to be the problem as your good exposures do look fine, and don't have any strange mottling or other patterns that would suggest a problem with the film), and to make sure that you're not doing something wrong either. You can try dry-firing it a bunch more - the lubricant in the shutter could just be a little sticky and need exercise.

DannL. · Nov 19, 2015

Very interesting. I went through three Ciro-Flexs some years ago and never got one with a fully functional shutter. Sorry to see this happen to you. Par for the course I guess.

ColColt · Nov 19, 2015

You have two, maybe three different potential problems. I'd never buy film from an unknown source for one thing even using it for a test. Are you familiar with the operations of the camera to know what to check? Too, it could be the camera itself. I'd get some fresh decent film and start there.

MichiTimm · Nov 19, 2015

Xmas said:
You need to look at the negative strips for a diagnostic.
Or take a photo of the strips in front of a table lamp shade with a smart phone.
The negatives strip should show 12 frames for a test I'd normally shoot a brick wall at 1/2 stop steps rather than Answell Adams replicas.

Can you tell me more about the 1/2 stop step test? Do you use the same shutter speed throughout, or adjust it in relation to the aperture? Is the idea to see that it's working at all stops?

MichiTimm · Nov 19, 2015

TheFlyingCamera said:
Given the rather random nature of it, I'd say it's more likely user error- did you in fact change your aperture between exposures, or your shutter speed? Or did you NOT change your aperture/shutter speed between frames and end up with it being grossly underexposed? Did you in fact trip the shutter on each frame and not just think you did and advance the film without actually making an exposure?

Without observing you using the camera it's hard to say for sure if it is user error or not. The Ciro-Flex is a very simple camera mechanically, and it doesn't have a lot (really any) interlocks that would prevent user error like coupling the shutter cocking to the film advance.

The other possibility is that the shutter and/or aperture are sticking when you fire the shutter. It's not likely that the aperture is not working, as again, it doesn't need to be open for focusing and then stop down when taking.

I'd run another roll of brand new film through it to eliminate any issues with the roll itself (the film isn't likely to be the problem as your good exposures do look fine, and don't have any strange mottling or other patterns that would suggest a problem with the film), and to make sure that you're not doing something wrong either. You can try dry-firing it a bunch more - the lubricant in the shutter could just be a little sticky and need exercise.

I've been dry-firing it occasionally/repeatedly for a while now and at least to my eye it seems to be doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing every time. I'll run another roll of film through it soon, hopefully tomorrow. But it won't be brand new film, simply because I don't have any brand new film. Maybe I'll buy a new roll at the camera shop when I pick up the scans from this next roll.

I did change my aperture and shutter speed between exposures sometimes. I've gone through looking for some sort of relationship - like maybe the bad ones were after I changed a setting, but that isn't the case. Seems pretty random. Maybe I didn't actually trip the shutter, but I'm not sure how I could've managed that.

Meh. Next up I'll just shoot another roll, being very careful that I'm not screwing anything up, and see what happens. But not at the graveyard. Right now I'm leaning toward the ancient burial ground curse explanation.

jeffreythree · Nov 19, 2015

Which Ciroflex did you get? It looks like a random mix of forgetting to set the shutter(or leaving the lens cap on) and an issue of picking the wrong exposure. I have also picked up those empty frames when accidently passing up the next frame number in red window cameras.

winger · Nov 19, 2015

Since some exposures look pretty decent, I don't think the film was the problem. Caveat - I don't know this camera at all. Can you advance the film without firing the shutter? Could you have done that? Since it's a TLR and you're probably not looking through the taking lens, is there a cap on the lens? Did you exercise the shutter much before the roll? Yes, each of those has happened to me with a Hong Mei TLR I have.
Yeah, maybe the graveyard was the factor. Ya never know.

MichiTimm · Nov 20, 2015

It's a Ciro-flex Model A I believe, but I'm just going by the lower-case writing on the name plate and the different, larger focusing knob than the others I've seen have, and the Detroit, Mich stamp. The shutter is self-cocking and I don't have a lens cap, so neither of those are the problem. I can't say for sure that I didn't ever advance the film without taking a shot, but I like to think I wouldn't do it five times in a row, lol. I'm also not sure how I could have screwed up the exposure that bad. After the first three photos -- which all came out fine -- the rest of the shots were taken at the same place, in the same kind of lighting, in a matter of about a half-hour. I changed the settings, but not much. I exercised the shutter a little before the roll. This is my second Ciro-flex - the first one arrived with a shutter that didn't fire at all, so I did spend some time just firing it at all speeds with all different aperture settings before I loaded film into it just to make sure it might work.

I mean, I can't say for sure I didn't do something wrong - I'm just not sure what, lol. I'll try again as soon as possible though and be ultra careful. I'm hoping it was just a fluke.

Anyway, here's a shot of it I took with a Polaroid SX-70 and some expired Impossible film. I took some digital shots too but haven't had a chance to process them.

Perry B · Nov 20, 2015

The first shot with the round overexposed area is rather odd. It seems about the right size and location to match up with the red window on the back of the camera. Is the red window in place, and does the sliding cover for the window work? If the backing paper on the film isn't lightproof, it might not block light coming through the window. The blank frames could be the result of the shutter sticking intermittently and not opening on those particular exposures.

MichiTimm · Nov 20, 2015

Perry B said:
The first shot with the round overexposed area is rather odd. It seems about the right size and location to match up with the red window on the back of the camera. Is the red window in place, and does the sliding cover for the window work? If the backing paper on the film isn't lightproof, it might not block light coming through the window. The blank frames could be the result of the shutter sticking intermittently and not opening on those particular exposures.

That "shot" with the round overexposed area isn't actually a shot at all-- and it's the 13th, not the first. No idea why it's even there. I didn't take a 13th shot. The cover for the window does work. At this point, I think intermittent shutter malfunction is as good a guess as any, but I just find it odd that every single time I fire it without film in the camera it appears to work just fine. Anyway, I shot a roll at lunch today and dropped it off at the camera shop after work. Hopefully I can get there after work tomorrow before they close to pick it up and see what the what is.

MichiTimm · Nov 21, 2015

Well I still don't know what the problem was with the first roll and perhaps never will (but I wouldn't bet against that burial ground curse thing!), but I got the second roll back today and it went 12-for-12.

If you need me, I'll be out playing with my new working Detroit-made Ciro-flex! !

Camera problem, maybe? Or photographer problem?

MichiTimm

Attachments

Xmas

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council

DannL.

ColColt

MichiTimm

MichiTimm

jeffreythree

winger

MichiTimm

Attachments

Perry B

MichiTimm

MichiTimm

Attachments

Camera problem, maybe? Or photographer problem?

Attachments

Membership Council

Attachments

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency