Camera Choice: What's most practical for me?

[nuckabean]

The holiday season is coming up and I'm looking to celebrate by purchasing my first high end medium format setup. I have a Yashica-Mat tlr, a Holga, and I've used my school's Mamiya 645E. As much as I liked the 645E, I feel that if I'm spending money on my own, I'd rather have a larger frame size. My budget is around 1k. After doing lots of research over the past few weeks, I've decided on a few choices:

A)Mamiya RZ67 Pro II, 127 f3.8 lens, AE Prism II, and a 120 back.
There are two major upsides to this camera for me. The first is that it has a meter that is integrated into the camera. I will not be using the camera in a studio so I won't always have time to use an external meter and then set the shutterspeed and aperture on the camera. The second upside is the 6x7 is my first choice in frame size. Another benefit is that the equipment if currently fairly cheap. The downside is that, as I'm sure that many of you will point out, they are large and heavy.

B)Hasselblad 503cxi, 80 F2.8 C lens, Metered Prism, and 120 back.
There are also two major upsides to this camera. It's smaller than the Mamiya so it's easier to use in the field. I shoot mostly outside in the areas around where I live so portability is a big thing but not the biggest. The other major upside is the optics, because I've heard nothing but good things about the Zeiss lenses. There are downsides too. The major thing keeping me away from this camera is the lack of integration between the viewfinder and the body. I really don't like the idea of finding the exposure value with the meter, then using it to set my shutterspeed and aperture. Maybe I'm just too used to 35mm and digital slrs with internal meters and auto-exposure modes. I'm also not a huge fan of square format. Hassleblads are also considerably more expensive than the Mamiya.

C)Mamiya 6 or 7
Something totally different than the other too, can't really compare upsides and downsides because that would be like apples and oranges. I've never shot with a rangefinder before but they seem like they may be a good choice for me. They're lightweight and have a built in meter which are good for me but they're much less expandable than the other two systems and they're also more expensive.

So tell me APUG, what are your thoughts? I've already held the Hassy and the Mamiya 7 so the next step would be to see exactly how big the RZ67 is. Is it really as giant and heavy as it's made out to be? Is the Hassleblad metering system as cumbersome as it sounds? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[SamWeiss]

In the past, I have owned a Rolleiflex TLR, Mamiya 6, and the P67II. Yet none were perfect for me - they all had tradeoffs that eventually were too much for me. That is indeed the reality of venturing away from the auto-everything 35mm systems; one soon discovers that the tools are all useful for some things, but none are great for all things. Thus most of us end up with more than one camera.

I was quite impressed with the Mamiya 6 lenses. The light meter on the camera is not so useful, BTW. Yet again, because of the limited lens selection and the weakness of rangefinders with long lenses... I eventually sold it.

On your list, only the Mamiya rangefinders are ideal for hand-held photography. When I rented a Hasselblad to try out (to see if I ought to buy one) it became apparent that the compactness doesn't translate into ideal hand-hold-ability (and the Rolleiflex TLR is better in this regard, IMO.)

Of the medium format SLRs available, many people claim only the Pentax 645 is really as easy to hold and use as the 35mm systems - yet like you I've never been attracted to the 645 format.

What you didn't tell us is what you want to photograph!

 

[Ian Grant]

Personally if I was in your shoes I'd buy the Mamiya 6 or 7, I like range-finders, the camera is very portable and great for travelling. But as Sam says it really depends what you want to shoot with it.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I started off with a medium format SLR nearly five years ago, and would recommended an SLR to start. With a camera system, you often have multiple options in terms of lenses and other add-ons, meaning that many different types of subject matter can be explored within one camera system, e.g from macro to long telephoto photography.

I have added a rangefinder camera to my collection, which is very useful in terms of a small camera (handheld or light weight tripod), built in meter, 645 negatives etc. but it is not particularly multipurpose, e.g. no macro, and no telephoto.

Tom.

 

[keeds]

If you want to do close up portraits then the Mamiya 7 is far from ideal. Otherwise it is a fantastic setup.

 

[André E.C.]

Where's the dillema here?

You own a 645, you don't like square images, you're used to be an auto exposure mate, the Hasselblad system is more expensive than the Mamiya equivalent, RZ is a beast, bla bla bla bla.

Easy isn't it? Get a M7II and shoot away, where's the dillema?:confused:



André

 

[Michael W]

You might also consider a Pentax 67. I think you could get one for cheaper than a Mamiya 7.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

You might want to look at a Bronica GS-1 outfit. They have AE prisms, have 120 and 220 backs that can shoot either 6x7 or 6x6, and have speed grips (perhaps motor winders too, but I forget). They're smaller and lighter than the RB/RZ, and they cost a lot less too.

 

[Claire Senft]

A RZ system can be very nice indeed. The camera is much more at home on a tripod than most. The RZ's strong points are the revolving back which is really nice when used on a tripod. The bellows will get you up close without attachments. The best feature, in m opinion, of a larger camera is the increased size of the ground glass which makes composition very nice. I do feel though that the RZ67 film backs as regards reliability can be a problem.

You may also wish to examine the Pentax 67 which is a very nice camera. I would think that for handheld use it might be better than the RZ. When used on a tripod the lack of a revolving back will be noticed when going fron one orientation to another...ie horizontal to vertical.

 

[nuckabean]

Thanks for all your help.

I don't really focus on one area of photography but If I had to classify it I would say nature photography. Pictures of trees, landscapes, and plants along with whatever my assignments are for photo class. As I said before, I'm never in a studio.

I'm looking into the Mamiya 7 more now as per your recommendations. I've heard some complaints about quality, is this something I should be worried about? I want a camera that I can hike with without worrying about it breaking. I'm looking at KEH right now to buy whichever camera to chose. Would you guys recommend differently? I've also heard about the rangefinder becoming un-calibrated in the 7. Should I count on it not being calibrated if I buy from KEH?

I still want to actually try these cameras so I probably won't make a decision till I do but thanks again for your help.

 

[gerryyaum]

Never shot the RZ67 but have a RB67 as well as several blads and Mamiya 6 cameras. If I were you I would go with a blad, in a word it is OPTICS OPTICS OPTICS, go with the best lens available, you will not regret it. With the world of digital knocking down the price of blad equipment (most of which is interchangeable) you can get a system now and add to it at your leasure at a reasonably low cost.

Saying that, I am also a huge fan of the Mamiya 6 camera, I have had some break down issues with them (am onto my 4th body now) but damn when that camera is working it's a charm! I did all of my Bangkok street at night stuff with this camera, I carried 2 Mamiya 6s one with 2 lens and shot in color and b/w. For focusing on the street at night (low light) fast (people waiting)and easy (hit and run photography), nothing beats this rangefinder. The lens are also remarkebly sharp.

photos shot with Mamiya 6 (all the square format stuff on this page):

http://www.gerryyaum.com/street life.html

 

[Phillip P. Dimor]

I like my 503cx, 6x7 is enticing though. If I want bigger, I use my 4x5. I don't mind metering and then setting the shutter and fstop, you get pretty quick at it. I know that at first this hung me up but I don't think about it now. I also don't have to change my exposure drastically with every shot (unless I want to). It's not cumbersome.. but then again I like using my speed graphic and even use it hand held for pictures of my dogs.

The RZ isn't impossible to handhold. I've met a guy who used that same RZ Pro II setup. He used a flash bracket. It was a big camera, no doubt about it but it was steady due to the weight and bracket. He really liked it and used it for band photos.

I wouldn't discount the Bronics GS either. It is smaller, it's one of the smallest 6x7 slrs (if not the?) and the prices are very reasonable.
Also, hasselblad is nice and zeiss is super but they aren't magic. Don't get sucked into it thinking that they will make a better picture than your yashica mat. I've pictures from a Tower TLR with a 3 or 4 element lens that satisfy me more than many of my hasselblad photos.
I also wasn't as scared to take the Tower out, leave it in my car, use it in the snow, etc..

 

[SamWeiss]

Thanks for all your help.

I don't really focus on one area of photography but If I had to classify it I would say nature photography. Pictures of trees, landscapes, and plants along with whatever my assignments are for photo class. As I said before, I'm never in a studio.

So, since you are shooting things that don't move much have you thought of a field camera? That is where I am heading, it seems. Keeping 35mm AF for the point and shoot (and action, etc.), while looking at larger formats for serious studies, etc.

Only problem for me is that I want to do color (negative), and no one near me does sheet C-41, so I'd need to mail order the processing (and I can do b&w myself.)

Something to keep in mind...

I'm looking into the Mamiya 7 more now as per your recommendations. I've heard some complaints about quality, is this something I should be worried about? I want a camera that I can hike with without worrying about it breaking. I'm looking at KEH right now to buy whichever camera to chose. Would you guys recommend differently?

As I have written earlier, I had a Mamiya 6MF for a while. It worked fine (bought it used.) However, the very first time I used a Mamiya 6 I had rented one (in order to see if I liked the idea of MF rangefinder), and sure enough the first time out with that rental the back of the camera broke off! The metal hinge tore (metal fatigue?) Rentals get abused, so I am not sure how relevant of an indication that experience will be for you, but there it is...

One final thing - concerns over the optical qualities of lenses are much over-rated, IMO. Of all the great photos I've seen in books, magazines, and in person, I've never once been inclined to wonder about the quality of the taking lens, or has such concern stopped the successful photographer. Unless you are doing technical work (e.g., reprographics) I highly doubt any lens from any of the well known brands will let you down. In all likelihood, You will be the limitation on your photographs, not the lens.

 

[Palantiri7]

The Pentax 645 system is the most 35mm-like that I've tried. First-class metering, tough bodies, and some great lenses.

 

[Mark Fisher]

When I got a medium format camera, I went with Hasselblad. I was used to spot metering anyway so an in camera meter was not important (and don't work as well as hand held metering in my experience). I purchased a simple 500c/m with waistlevel finder and I am quite happy. It is just an incredibility pleasant camera to use. If you stick to your original criteria, the suggestions of the Pentax 67 and the Bronica GS are good ones. Personally, I'd go with the Pentax simply because they are plentiful and built like a tank. Extra lenses are dirt cheap too. The RB/RZ series are incredibly large and I couldn't imaging taking them out into the field. Easier and lighter to tote a 4x5 field camera. The Mamiya 6/7 are great cameras and I almost bought one, but I'm not a fan of rangefinder viewing for anything except the two middle focal lengths.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The holiday season is coming up and I'm looking to celebrate by purchasing my first high end medium format setup. I have a Yashica-Mat tlr, a Holga, and I've used my school's Mamiya 645E. As much as I liked the 645E, I feel that if I'm spending money on my own, I'd rather have a larger frame size. My budget is around 1k. After doing lots of research over the past few weeks, I've decided on a few choices:

A)Mamiya RZ67 Pro II, 127 f3.8 lens, AE Prism II, and a 120 back.
There are two major upsides to this camera for me. The first is that it has a meter that is integrated into the camera. I will not be using the camera in a studio so I won't always have time to use an external meter and then set the shutterspeed and aperture on the camera. The second upside is the 6x7 is my first choice in frame size. Another benefit is that the equipment if currently fairly cheap. The downside is that, as I'm sure that many of you will point out, they are large and heavy.

B)Hasselblad 503cxi, 80 F2.8 C lens, Metered Prism, and 120 back.
There are also two major upsides to this camera. It's smaller than the Mamiya so it's easier to use in the field. I shoot mostly outside in the areas around where I live so portability is a big thing but not the biggest. The other major upside is the optics, because I've heard nothing but good things about the Zeiss lenses. There are downsides too. The major thing keeping me away from this camera is the lack of integration between the viewfinder and the body. I really don't like the idea of finding the exposure value with the meter, then using it to set my shutterspeed and aperture. Maybe I'm just too used to 35mm and digital slrs with internal meters and auto-exposure modes. I'm also not a huge fan of square format. Hassleblads are also considerably more expensive than the Mamiya.

C)Mamiya 6 or 7
Something totally different than the other too, can't really compare upsides and downsides because that would be like apples and oranges. I've never shot with a rangefinder before but they seem like they may be a good choice for me. They're lightweight and have a built in meter which are good for me but they're much less expandable than the other two systems and they're also more expensive.

So tell me APUG, what are your thoughts? I've already held the Hassy and the Mamiya 7 so the next step would be to see exactly how big the RZ67 is. Is it really as giant and heavy as it's made out to be? Is the Hassleblad metering system as cumbersome as it sounds? Thanks in advance for your help.

And the answer is B! I have used TLRs and 35mm Range Finders and 35mm SLRs. I shoot two Nikon SLRs and was given a Mamiyaflex C330 with the 65mm, 80mm, and 250mm lenses, paraminder and every accessory known to mankind and some that are not known to mankind. I traded all the Mamiyaflex equipment for a Hasselblad 500 CX and never regretted it.

The Hasselblad handles like a MF Nikon SLR, just a little larger and not quite as fast to set up the lens.

I brought Hasselblad lenses from camera stores and KEH. I would used KEH. You can get a CX body for around $500, a 45 degree metering finder like a PME for $150, an 80mm for $500, and 50mm, 150mm and 250mm CF lenses for $800 each. Just remember my signature.

[I still use the Nikons too.]

Steve

 

[Claire Senft]

In choosing a square camera the Rollei SLR models have much to offer also.

 

[keithwms]

With an RB you can shoot 6x8...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Aww hell, with bringing 6x8 into it, if you're willing to consider an RB/RZ, why not go whole hog and get a Fuji 680 GX? They're going silly cheap (not so much the lenses, but you can get a pristine 680 GX II with NiCads and charger for $300-ish at KEH). Definitely NOT hand-holdable, but where else are you going to get perspective control and auto-exposure in a medium format camera?

 

[keithwms]

If you do consider the gx680 series, take care that you don't get the one without perspective control ("680s" as I recall) and also take note that these things suck batteries, so indeed you'd want the rechargeable-battery model.