Call for submissions.........book cover

Domenico, what you are talking about is supporting a charity through your work...this is admirable and just. I do it myself regularly.

A business, however, is not a charity. That is all that Chris is suggesting, and I think it's fair.

i'm with you domenico ...

i wish i had something suitable to submit.
the folks that put out the igNobel awards every year
used to get a bunch of us to work with them
for a bi-line and copies of the publication ..
i don't see anything wrong with helping out friends ...

chriscrawfordphoto said:

Giving pics to a charity you support is a hell of a lot different than giving something to a business. These people asking for pics are a business. If they cannot afford to pay their bills (and yes paying writes and photographers is a normal part of doing business as a publisher), then they need to evaluate whether they have the ability to keep the business going. Businesses are, not, and I repeat, NOT charities. They need to do what all of us did when we started our businesses: Save money, get business loans, find investors to back you, etc. Asking working people to work for free so they can have a business is arrogant and repugnant. No one has a right to be in business; an undercapitalized business fails in a free market economy, as well it should.

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I don't totally disagree with Chris, but I also think that there are lots of entities out there that benefit the community without being charities.

Publishing is done for profit, and it is done for the love of the material being published, and it is done for a mixture of the two. From my point of view, if a publication clearly is at least part a "labour of love" then I would be willing to consider making contributions to it without hope of financial rewards. I would expect, however, that:

1) it would be clear that there were others, including the principals of the operation, who were making similar contributions; and
2) the decision to make such a contribution is one to be made by me, voluntarily and in advance - people who don't pay bills they have previously agreed to pay do not attract any sympathy from me.

I'm not sure how photographers are so different from writers but not one writer out of the hundreds who have submitted for their previous publications has been paid, asked for compensation, or complained in any way. If/ when in the future the press makes a profit and can pay the cover artist, I don't think I'll mention it here.

Do those of you who do not pay to subscibe to this forum feel that Sean (apug owner/operator) doesn't need to be comensated for his time/efforts? He can work for free but you wouldn't dream of it?

In case you missed it:

wildbill said:

My wife, Stacy, is doing the design work for a small publishing company that is currently seeking images. I figure there's got to be someone here interested in getting their work on the cover.


Call for submissions:

Fast Forward Press is currently seeking photographs for the cover of our upcoming flash novel "Emily Avenue." We are accepting color and b&w photographs containing a neon café sign of some sort (sign does not have to say café on it), preferably at night. The submission should be a low-quality file (72dpi, maximum width of 650 pixels), but if selected original work must be available at 300dpi in at least a 5"x7" size. Also, please note that the photograph may be cropped to fit cover dimensions.

Payment will be photo credit given inside the book, along with 2 contributor copies. Please see our website (http://fastforwardpress.org/) for our current volumes and information about our press.

Send submissions to: ffpressblog@gmail.com
Deadline: September 20th, 2010

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wildbill said:

I'm not sure how photographers are so different from writers but not one writer out of the hundreds who have submitted for their previous publications has been paid, asked for compensation, or complained in any way.

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Somehow this doesn't surprise me. When I was editing a little literary magazine, I'd get 20-30 manuscripts a day in my mail box. There was very little money or fame in it for anyone (in fact, it cost me a lot to keep it going, which is why I don't do it any more) but there are a lot of people out there who want to be published, no matter what. I'm quite familiar with the economics and social dynamics of small-press publishing. But I still think that publication just for credit is one step from vanity publishing.

wildbill said:

I'm not sure how photographers are so different from writers but not one writer out of the hundreds who have submitted for their previous publications has been paid, asked for compensation, or complained in any way. If/ when in the future the press makes a profit and can pay the cover artist, I don't think I'll mention it here.

Do those of you who do not pay to subscibe to this forum feel that Sean (apug owner/operator) doesn't need to be comensated for his time/efforts? He can work for free but you wouldn't dream of it?

In case you missed it:

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This is so cute, a fit of pique when you're rejected--how very professional. We're not discussing APUG, pal, just your sustained incomprehension of why people aren't too keen on working for free for a sketchy operation trolling for sucker writers and photographers. Good luck with your business. I doubt anyone here will be hurt if you don't show up again. It's an opportunity we can live without.

Everyone- cool down. I agree that the notion of being asked to work for free, especially for a commercial enterprise, is somewhat galling. That said, there's no call for telling a positive contributor to the site that if he goes away he won't be missed.

CGW said:

This is so cute, a fit of pique when you're rejected--how very professional. We're not discussing APUG, pal, just your sustained incomprehension of why people aren't too keen on working for free for a sketchy operation trolling for sucker writers and photographers. Good luck with your business. I doubt anyone here will be hurt if you don't show up again. It's an opportunity we can live without.

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In many ways APUG is an electonic publication and as such, there are costs involved. , If you (and others) are so bent out of shape about compensation, why don't you get off your wallet and help Sean out by subscribing.

You talk the talk, now let's see if you can walk the walk!

Dinesh said:

In many ways APUG is an electonic publication and as such, there are costs involved. , If you (and others) are so bent out of shape about compensation, why don't you get off your wallet and help Sean out by subscribing.

You talk the talk, now let's see if you can walk the walk!

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That's wide of the point which is: Who needs shills, come-ons and near-spam? Perhaps the original post should have been deleted or the thread closed?

CGW said:

That's wide of the point which is: Who needs shills, come-ons and near-spam? Perhaps the original post should have been deleted or the thread closed?

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Put the thread on ignore if it bothers you or else leave the site. I am sure that Sean can do without your financial contribution (or lack thereof) to his site.

If you wish to discuss this further, send me a PM.

Wildbill is a subscriber and longtime contributor to the site. He has proposed an arrangement for those who might wish to submit images for a certain project. If you aren't interested in the terms, you pass it by. If you are interested, submit. It's pretty simple, and doesn't need berating. Some folks pay to enter images in contests etc. and some folks get paid on a regular basis for their images. This falls square in between. I personally don't have any images that I wish to trade for the terms, so I'm taking a pass. It's just business, and I rather doubt it is intended as some sort of insult, so don't take it that way.

JBrunner said:

Wildbill is a subscriber and longtime contributor to the site. He has proposed an arrangement for those who might wish to submit images for a certain project. If you aren't interested in the terms, you pass it by. If you are interested, submit. It's pretty simple, and doesn't need berating. Some folks pay to enter images in contests etc. and some folks get paid on a regular basis for their images. This falls square in between. I personally don't have any images that I wish to trade for the terms, so I'm taking a pass. It's just business, and I rather doubt it is intended as some sort of insult, so don't take it that way.

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Why muddy this conversation with common sense? It was going so well...

Best regards,

Bob

rpsawin said:

Why muddy this conversation with common sense? It was going so well...

Best regards,

Bob

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I seem to recall Ilford asking for submissions for images to be used on their new paper boxes, but don't recall compensation being discussed in the form of $$ value.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This was greeted with high enthusiasm and nigh said about the lack of payment forthcoming should you win - and Ilford (like the said publisher) will be making money from the winning images.

I guess the difference is in the product maybe? The prices for each item are totally different:
-

• Ilford 8x10 Pk 100 GBP29.00 from Silverprint
• Fast Forward #2 Amazon $12.00

It's your choice to submit or not - berating somebody for their opinion is uncalled for and not in the spirit of APUG.

As a professional photographer it is disappointing to hear requests like this; I make a living from the images I produce, and "free" imagery requests continue to break down the industry.

As a result, the fees both individuals and companies are willing to pay continues to diminish (and often the quality does as well), but for many, the price is *the* most important factor - quality comes a very poor second.

Perhaps the publisher could revise their position and offer to pay the successful candidate based upon RF per one of the big stock sites?

Getty's offer:

28.5 MB
3870 x 2575 px (12.90 x 8.58 in.) - 300 dpi - RGB
File size on download 3.93 MB

THB 15,000.00 (or USD$500.00)

Food for thought perhaps?

Oz- I think the difference is in the value of the exposure you get from Ilford packaging vs. the book. With the Ilford packaging, the image will receive global distribution, be seen by millions of people, and have an extended life in people's darkrooms. Because it is on the Ilford packaging, it provides a sense (perhaps false) of some kind of "official" recognition of ones' success as a photographer. The book, however, will not have anywhere near the same exposure, nor will it convey the same cachet of being a "master" of black-and-white photography.

i don't see a problem with giving an image to a struggling publisher for a by-line.
in the great scheme of things it is a positive thing, and positive things usually lead to
more positive things ....

i don't think that a struggling publisher being run by friends who ask friends who are photographers
if they are interested in "being involved" is the reason for "photography's decline" ...
there are many other reasons for that ... like the dumbing down of society, and places like flickr
where adv agencies troll looking for cheap images ... there is a huge difference IMHO between
a multi million dollar business, and a struggling publishing company, run by a handful of friends
that don't even pay themselves...

I'm with you jnanian. My sister ran a small press for a while, put out small bunch of books that they thought should be out there. I gave a few images to them, and did some copywork for them from time to time. Why is this automatically a problem if all parties involved are satisfied? Is using a friends labor to repair your porch instead of a pro contractor a problem? Worse if the friend s happy to do it in exchange for a six-pack of beer instead of $750? As stated- it was a call not a requirement, and I expect there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to have an image on a book cover- even if it is some little publisher.

jnanian said:

i don't see a problem with giving an image to a struggling publisher for a by-line.

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I don't see a problem either. If the money is not there to pay full price for an image then no one is losing out.

Equally I don't think any plumbers, electricians or carpenters local to me go out of business when I go and work on a friend's house for free.


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

I don't see a problem either. If the money is not there to pay full price for an image then no one is losing out.

Equally I don't think any plumbers, electricians or carpenters local to me go out of business when I go and work on a friend's house for free.


Steve.

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These people asking for free photos are NOT our friends, they're people on a forum. I just gave a good friend a framed print of one of my Doll House photos. She's a longtime friend who lives in my city and who I talk to and see often. THAT is a friend. Not someone most of us will never meet or even talk to outside this forum.

sepiareverb said:

I'm with you jnanian. My sister ran a small press for a while, put out small bunch of books that they thought should be out there. I gave a few images to them, and did some copywork for them from time to time. Why is this automatically a problem if all parties involved are satisfied? Is using a friends labor to repair your porch instead of a pro contractor a problem? Worse if the friend s happy to do it in exchange for a six-pack of beer instead of $750? As stated- it was a call not a requirement, and I expect there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to have an image on a book cover- even if it is some little publisher.

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Because helping a friend is a lot different than a stranger who is in business asking you to give services to his business for free. Not hard to understand.

I think this thread has run its course.