Caffenol without Coffee?

Blue Monkey · May 10, 2011

Lately, I've been intrigued with the alternative developers for different effect. I've ordered some Shanghai b+w film to play with.
I've been researching Caffenol for developing film and paper. I can understand the washing soda and the ascorbic acid helping, but what exactly does the coffee do? Besides toning the neg and paper, can one develop without adding the coffee? What other substitute can be used? I even came across some users using tea and chai. If it's the caffeine - can you use Coke, Pepsi or Red Bull?

bwrules · May 10, 2011

Catechol-like substances in coffee.

Have you tried PC-TEA? Three ingredients: Phenidone, Vit. C, Triethanolamine. Liquid concentrate, lasts forever, very cheap.

Blue Monkey · May 10, 2011

I haven't tried the PC-TEA bw. My first thought was President's Choice Tea? Yeah I can get that at the grocery store here! LOL

The Phenidone sounds safer, faster according to Wiki:
Phenidone (1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone) is an organic chemical compound whose primary use is as a photographic developer. It has five to ten times the developing power as Metol. It also has low toxicity and, unlike some other developers, does not cause dermatitis upon skin contact.[1]

Now I have to figure out where to find it!

How critical are the pH levels with these developers?

removed account4 · May 10, 2011

its the caffic acid in the coffee .. and it is mostly in robusta coffee.
i have a feeling it is the "stuff" that keeps the robusta coffee plants from
getting "coffee rust" and other diseases that are prevalent in arabica coffee plants.
you might be able to find it at a chemical house and bypass the brew -
but how much you use .. it might take a few rolls to figure out
most instant coffees are "cut" with good coffee for taste ...
i home roast robusta coffee and it is 100% robusta ...
and the 2 litres i made back in decenber showed no sign of depletion ...
( lots of film AND lots of prints through it WITHOUT replenishment )
cost me about 3$ to process 50+ sheets of 4x5 film and nearly as much 8x10 paper
i have never had the coffee i make analyzed to see how much caffic acid is in there ..
you might be able to poke around the internet and find out ...

Hexavalent · May 10, 2011

Blue Monkey said:
I haven't tried the PC-TEA bw. My first thought was President's Choice Tea? Yeah I can get that at the grocery store here! LOL

I'm not sure if President's Choice Teas can be used as developer, though I can attest to some of the herbal blends tasting about as good as developer
Much prefer Twinnings

Blue Monkey · May 10, 2011

jnanian said:
its the caffic acid in the coffee .. and it is mostly in robusta coffee.
i have a feeling it is the "stuff" that keeps the robusta coffee plants from
getting "coffee rust" and other diseases that are prevalent in arabica coffee plants.
you might be able to find it at a chemical house and bypass the brew -
but how much you use .. it might take a few rolls to figure out
most instant coffees are "cut" with good coffee for taste ...
i home roast robusta coffee and it is 100% robusta ...
and the 2 litres i made back in decenber showed no sign of depletion ...
( lots of film AND lots of prints through it WITHOUT replenishment )
cost me about 3$ to process 50+ sheets of 4x5 film and nearly as much 8x10 paper
i have never had the coffee i make analyzed to see how much caffic acid is in there ..
you might be able to poke around the internet and find out ...

That's interesting. Most threads I read say develop and dump. But if your blend can be reused without replenisher, it's worth looking into.

I'm not a coffee or tea drinker, but the wife is. I suppose she might get upset if I grind and soup her Kona blend that we picked up in Hawaii.

Blue Monkey · May 10, 2011

I just found that B&H carries phenidone LINK

One pound for the $58.50 - I assume that should last a long while using 2 grams per Liter.

bwrules · May 10, 2011

I wouldn't order anything larger than a few grams, as it doesn't have a good shelf life, and very little goes a loooooong way. I've ordered from http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/ before without problems. They will weigh for you the amount needed as well.

TEA is available, and probably cheapest from thechemistrystore.com, and "NOW" brand vit. C powder from a local health food store, although it's plentiful on the web.

What is so alternative about Coffee developers? Do they produce different results from regular developers? The only real alternatives I can think of are staining pyrocatechin/pyrogallol developers as they give a proportional stain and print differently.

Huge advantage of PC-TEA is the dev. times correspond to Xtol. 1:50 = Xtol's 1:2, 1:25 = Xtol's 1:1, etc. Little guesswork to do.

removed account4 · May 10, 2011

i always find it funny and sad that people
with no experience with a certain developer
or aspect of photography somehow become
so all-knowing they can claim it is a total waste
or ... whatever ...
instead of actually trying it and seeing what it is all about.

bwrules,
maybe before you make claims in this thread or others
about how much of a waste of time or how much money &C
caffenol is you should spend some time using it ... so you
know what you are talking about ...

bwrules · May 10, 2011

jnanian said:
i always find it funny and sad that people
with no experience with a certain developer
or aspect of photography somehow become
so all-knowing they can claim it is a total waste
or ... whatever ...
instead of actually trying it and seeing what it is all about.

bwrules,
maybe before you make claims in this thread or others
about how much of a waste of time or how much money &C
caffenol is you should spend some time using it ... so you
know what you are talking about ...

Never claimed to be all knowing. In fact I asked a question. Since you have the experience with this developer, care to answer it?

removed account4 · May 11, 2011

bwrules said:
Never claimed to be all knowing. In fact I asked a question. Since you have the experience with this developer, care to answer it?

if you aren't claiming to be all-knowing why do you claim the developer is poor, without any first hand experience ?

there are plenty of people who use it and plenty of examples of work created with it, here on apug or elsewhere ...

bwrules said:
I don't understand why anyone would bother with this poor developer. We have much better homebrew developers available. Such as PC-TEA. Total waste.

you were directed there in the other thread .. and i will direct you there again

http://caffenol.blogspot.com/
http://caffenol.blogspot.com/2010/03/r.html

caffenol can be made with relatively benign household ingredients
or those found in a grocery store ..
the chemicals are not nasty and toxic like most other developers
(pctea/pyro/metol/hq )
the developer ingredients last a long time both dry and mixed
caffenol can be used as a deep tank, replenished, or one shot developer
it can be used as a print or film developer,
it has no trouble processing a variety of iso films in the same batch
for the same time

Blue Monkey -

if you want to make caffenol with just caffic acid
there are lots of suppliers worldwide and it is about 1-2$ a kg
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/caffeic-acid.html

but there might be other ingredients in the coffee that add to the developer
and make it do what it does ... so your results might not be the same ...

Steve Smith · May 11, 2011

I think mint tea or an infusion of rosemary leaves will work.

I have only tried Caffenol once (simple version without ascorbic acid) and I thought it was very good. I couldn't tell any difference in the negatives from those I had developed with Ilfor LC-29 which was my normal developer at the time.

Steve.

ntenny · May 11, 2011

(phenidone)

bwrules said:
I wouldn't order anything larger than a few grams, as it doesn't have a good shelf life, and very little goes a loooooong way.

Yeah, I can't imagine who would need a pound of phenidone as a private citizen! I think I bought 100 g from the Formulary about three years ago, and I'll probably be used up before it will.

It apparently keeps better in solution in propylene glycol than dry; easier to measure that way, too.

What is so alternative about Coffee developers? Do they produce different results from regular developers?

Well, they're mild staining developers and have no solvent whatsoever, which is a kind of interesting combination. I've found I really like the results I get from Fomapan 100 in Caffenol C, though I couldn't tell you in objective terms exactly what constitutes "That Look".

They're "alternative", though, mainly in the sense of being made entirely from household ingredients. I wouldn't really call Caffenol an "alternative process" myself.

-NT

bwrules · May 11, 2011

I've read too many problematic Caffenol accounts to consider it poor. That's why I never gave it a try. How much film and how long did it take you to iron the kinks out of it? Is it good with fast films? What about fog and general stain?

PC-TEA worked for me right away without any fine-tuning or wasting time and film. It gives results similar to Xtol, and along with Xtol is far from toxic. Phenidone isn't metol, and TEA is used in cosmetics.

Steve Smith · May 11, 2011

bwrules said:
How much film and how long did it take you to iron the kinks out of it? Is it good with fast films? What about fog and general stain?

As I wrote earlier, I have only used it once and I followed someone's instructions (probably on this forum).

I developed for half an hour and my first and only film (FP4+) was perfect. I didn't notice any stain and there was no apparent fogging above what I would consider to be a normal base level.

It was such a success that if I wanted to develop a film and had run out of 'proper' developer, I wouldn't hesitate to use Caffenol.

Steve.

removed account4 · May 11, 2011

bwrules ...
the main "problems" that happen with caffenol or caffenol C are problems
from using the wrong ingredients - instead of washing soda people might use baking soda,
or a different form of soda "crystals" or they don't use vit c powder but something altogether
different because they were told by someone at a store that " it is the same thing " when it isn't.
it is one of few developers where exact measurements are not critical ...

Blue Monkey · May 12, 2011

Appreciate all the information and the feedback from your experiences. Thanks also for the chem links. Sources are limited in Canada. The one source I found, Fisher Scientific was selling in bulk quantities. Hopefully ordering the dry chems will avoid the Hazmat fees and hassles of getting the liquids.

I do intend to try both Caffenol and PC-TEA now knowing the details of both. Just waiting on my shipment of Shanghai 100. I'll likely try a sheet at a time with each developer/time combination and see what works best with the Shanghai.

btw, off topic, but the Photographica Fair is this May 15th in Woodbridge. Put on by the www.phsc.ca folks. Good source of expired film along with used camera equipment.

Caffenol without Coffee?

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