Caffenol-C tragedy

Nicholas Lindan · Nov 26, 2010

guitstik said:
Every time I have asked a pharmacist for ascorbic acid (vitamin C) they tell me to get the Fruit-Fresh.

I think you need a fresh pharmacist.

Any good health food store should have Ascorbic Acid powder/Vitamin C crystals. If not then use the net:

http://www.amazon.com/Ascorbic-Acid-Powder-1-Pounds/dp/B000M4FI60/ref=pd_sbs_hpc_1
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=ascorbic+acid&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Though, in the spirit of Cafenol, maybe the correct source for Ascrobic Acid is home made. Go out in the garden and start clipping rose hips - just right for harvest about now.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 26, 2010

Erik Prestmo said:
Iron in the soda : In what way does that affect the ascorbate? You mean its a problem for ascorbate, not for ascorbic acid?

I also use monohydrate, called Crystal soda here locally, its used for washing all of the house before Xmas!

Only problem over here is finding Vitamine C, even in the health food stores - seems there's a movement afoot in that business, about Vitamineor C being "too hard for the intestines" - they even refuse to order it!

I can see where might be digestive problems for those taking megadoses but for those taking less than 1 gram a day there shouldn't be any problems. Perhaps teling the health food stores this will increase the availability.

The term ascorbate can refer to either the ascorbate ion or ascorbuc acid which can be thought of as hydrogen ascorbate. When you dissolve ascorbic acid in a sodium carbonate solution you get ascorbate ions.

Iron ions catalyse a particular form of oxidation called Fenton oxidation in the presence of ascorbate ion. The result is that the ascorbate is quickly destroyed. Developer can loss its effectiveness overnight. This was the cause of the sudden death syndrome reported with ascorbate developers like Xrol. Since you mix your developer immediately before use this shouldn't be a problem. But it can cause a problem when the developer is stored. The more iron impurity the faster the reaction. The oxidation products of ascorbic acid are colorless so there is no visual indication of any problem. Kodak, Ilford, Paterson, and other manufacturres now add a complexing agent to their developers to prevent this oxidation.

Ryuji used a combination of triethanolamine and salicylic acid as complexing agents in his DS series of developers. He published 2 film and 2 paper formulas. Check his website (www.silver-grain.org) for a detailed description of the Fenton reaction. I have used a film and a paper developer from the series and they are very good. For those who have access to photochemicals like Dimezone or Metol I would recommend them.

For those having difficulty finding ascorbic acid crystals, try to obtain Vitamin C in tablet form. They are usually 500 mg in ascorbic acid and have the advantage of being pre-weighed. You will have to filter out the insoluble binder after dissolving them. Another source would be sodium erythorbate (sodium isoascorbate). This isomer is somewhat more active as a developer than sodium ascorbate. Erythorbate is used as a food preservative for such things as sausages. I obtain mine from a spice company (Suttons Bay) for ~$7 a pound.

ntenny · Nov 26, 2010

guitstik said:
Every time I have asked a pharmacist for ascorbic acid (vitamin C) they tell me to get the Fruit-Fresh. Apparently the amount of ascorbic acid in the FF is higher than they carry. The only other way to get a higher concentration of Vit C is to get it in an injection and that requires a prescription. You would not think that it would be that hard to get a hold of pure vit C.

This seems kind of bizarre. Have you tried your nearest hippie-health-food store (there's a Whole Foods in Memphis, if nothing closer), or a nutritional-supplements shop?

-NT

removed account4 · Nov 26, 2010

a pharmacists will be able to order it for you .. if need it local --
it sounds like the pharmacy-tech you spoke with didn't want to deal
so s/he sent you to the canning aisle.

trader joe's has it in the supplements aisle,
it is the cheapest i have found it in a health food or vitamin store
and there is a t/j in nashville ... not sure if you are close to that, TN is a big place.

john

guitstik · Nov 27, 2010

I had almost decided to go with just straight caffenol instead of the "C" when I found a whole-foods store here in Memphis. I haven't had the opportunity to get by there yet but when I called and got prices and heard $15.99 for 8oz I had a stroke. I still need to get by there to check but....

lxdude · Nov 27, 2010

Maybe cut up some lemons?

Removed Account2 · Nov 27, 2010

He he....
Going back to the original post : 1 ml of vitamin C juice......
That would be about 1,25 grams of fluid.

In that fluid the vitamine content is about 20% at tops.
That would be 0,25 grams of vitamin C in that single mllilitre of fluid.

This in contrast to the standard CC-M recipe :
Soda 54 gram
Vitamin C 16 gram
Coffe 40 gram

All this dissolved one by one in that order into 1 liter of fluid.

We need 16 gram per liter
We need 9,6 gram per 600ml tank (2 35mm films)
We need 4,8 gram per 300 ml tank (1 35mm film)

In that 1 roll of 35mm tank, we should have added 4,8 gram, which is 5 gram for practical purposes.
We added 0,25 gram, which is 1/20 if the required dose.

Ascorbate acts as a catalyst to the caffein acid in this mix. Just like the Metol/Hydrochinone pair of developers enhanches each other. Its easy to see that nothing came out!

ErikP

guitstik · Nov 28, 2010

I just ordered some ascorbic acid off of a site and got it for $8.50/lb. It is supposed to be 100% pure, we'll see. I hope that it gets here by my off days so that I can give it a go. I will post with the results and hopefully they will be better than the first.

Ezzie · Nov 28, 2010

Hi. I've got very consistent results with TMAX100 and the recipe Erik refers to. The recipes have developed over time as a result of mixed experiences. I'd think you'll find Reinhold's blog a treasure trove of information: http://caffenol.blogspot.com

My own meagure efforts here: http://on-your-kitchen-worktop.blogspot.com

Removed Account2 · Nov 28, 2010

Its kinda hard to measure small amounts of powder. Get a used reloaders weight off www.gunbroker.com, just serach for a Lyman weight. They are cheap.

Someone can work out how many grains each ingredients are, for one tank full, and youre set for (the rest of your) life.

Erik

guitstik · Nov 28, 2010

Eric, I'm one step ahead of you. My gun collection is only rivaled by my camera collection so naturally I reload ammunition for target practice. The thing is that lately I spend more time with the cameras than the guns being that it is more polite to shoot people with a camera rather than a gun...although... No, I won't go there. I will say tho that had it not been for carrying a gun I probably would not be worrying about vitamin c for my caffenol.

Removed Account2 · Nov 28, 2010

We're two of a kind,, lately I've also been shooting more people with a camera than practicing that other thing!
(where I live is very, very quiet though, so most unfriendly iunteractioons can still be solved by a pot of cofee and a good chat, that way I get to get them in a good mood for picture - with cofee - before I develop that film - with cofee.

All the best, you WILL have this down pat.

Erik

alanrockwood · Nov 28, 2010

Erik Prestmo said:
...All the best, you WILL have this down pat.

Erik

Or, if you try to take to take the developer liquid aboard an aircraft it may be "pat down" rather than "down pat."

Removed Account2 · Nov 28, 2010

We're very simplissistic over here - it would freeze!

Removed Account2 · Nov 28, 2010

I did the math for you 12-fingered beasts :

Water to 1 litre :
Soda 54 gram = 833.3 grains
Ascorbic Acid 16 gram = 247 grains
Coffe 40 gram = 617,3 grain

Now WHO needs one litre? Not me, but I need 0,65 liter for two 35mm films in one Paterson tank

Water to 0.65 litre
Soda 35,1 gram = 542 grain
Ascorbic acid 10,4 gram = 161 grain
Coffe = 26 gram = 401 grain

And I might also need 0.35 litres for one 35mm film in a Paterson tank

Water to 0.35 litre
Soda 18,5 gram = 292 grain
Ascorbic acid 5,6 gram = 87 grain
Coffe 14 gram = 216 grain

Good luck!

guitstik · Nov 28, 2010

I appreciate the math Eric, that make it a little easier for those of us the are numerically dysfunctional.

removed account4 · Nov 29, 2010

sorry... all you number crunchers
but caffenol C or any coffee based developing
does not have to be exact measurements to work ..

i have had repeatable results for 3 years +/-
without exact measurements.

it is nice that you are all measuring and being exact
but like many things in life, being exact isn't a requirement ...

have fun !
john

Removed Account2 · Nov 29, 2010

Actually : yes you have to. But in your case, the thing is not being accurate, but being able to repeat (nearly) exactly from time to time.

There's nothing special about Caffenol, besides its a combination af a very active, fine grain, compensating developer (a very rare combination!), you get high ISO, fine grain and details in both the shadows and highlights at one and the same time, that is what that means......

But there's nothing special about this developer other than that.

Trying to communicate with others you have to be VERY metiuculous, stick to detail and report very accurately what you have done, what you put in it and in what order. This discussion is the very proof of that!

Removed Account2 · Nov 29, 2010

BTW, being accurate.

In a discussion with my norskie friends over this, we're of course trying to dechipher the strange measurements from across the atlantic. To people that hasn't measured out powder by volumetric measures, the idea of measuring stuff by volume is very strange, the metric guys have a simple method of measuring this, and stick to that.

Me, I have reloaded ammo for nearly 30 years, and for a long time I used very simple equipment, Lee Prescision plastic measures in a kit. With those I could get nearly any load I wanted, simply and in a hurry. If it's prescise enough for gunpowder, it certainly is prescise enough for developers!

To get my point across to the 10-finger crowd, I've done some testing wath a 15ml measure = 1 Tsp, and measured Soda, Ascorbic acid, and coffee with that, after both Reinhold's recipe and the various Yank' recipes on the net.

Translated from teaspoons to grams, and vice versa. I also repeated this, just to compare prescision and repeatibilty with the teaspoons vs the weight.

Turns out the repeatability was excellent with the teaspoons, it was about 1,6% difference in weight between two tests. That was less than the repeatability error in the weight! So I have nothing against volumetric measures, but I certainly have a lot against people advocating the idea that sloppyness will lead you anywhere.

ESPECIALLY when trying to communicate with others across oceans, language barriers and measurement barriers! What we must stick to is being accurate, both in measurements and description of methods. In some camps Caffenol has a bad rep. Those responsible for that is the very people spreading the idea that you don't need to be accurate.

However, as anyone working in a lab will know: if you work regularly with the same procedure, you start to automate things after a while. To oneself, and to casual observers that might seem to be inaccurate and sloppy - but that is far from the truth! This is like swimming and bicycling, once you master it, you can do it literally blindfolded. But you HAVE to master it first!

removed account4 · Nov 29, 2010

sorry, i have to disagree ..

the most important thing is not being precise or meticulous
but using the right ingredients, THAT is what this thread is about ..
not measurements down to to the mg or ml ...
as i stated in a previous thread, i have heavy-duty old school organic chemists and pharmacists in my bloodline and i agree, for some things it is important to be precise
&C, but making this developer is not one of them ... i have no trouble eyeballing, or even sloppily DUMPING my ingredients ... they are not consistently accurate to the centigram or the gram for that matter,
my water amounts are not the same from batch to batch either for that matter, and my results
have been consistent and repeatable since around 5-17-2005 ( the date for the scans i have in my computer
since whiteymorange gave me the recipe and i tried it the first time ) i guess i was
about a year off i should have said 4.5years +/- ... :munch:
...

i find it humorous that so much emphasis is put on exact measurements &C for consistent results ..
it doesn't matter if you use the exact measurements to the mg or ml i have .. only once, tea/tablespoon'ed
out my supplies, and my results were no better or worse than what i did 2 days ago ... when i just
shook coffee, and washing soda and vit C out of their containers ...

if you are using the wrong ingredients however this developer won't work at all,
which is what happened to the OP
it is like trying to make wheat bread, out of potato flour ... not even a :wizard: can do that

but ... to each their own, in the end it doesn't really matter since we are all having a good time

Removed Account2 · Nov 29, 2010

Sorry, you simply don't grasp this:

There are so many variables in a conversation about this matter across language barriers (that is what INTERnet is all about, you know), workhabits etc etc etc.

In order to faciliate anything we must speak a common language. A simpleton might think that english is a common language and all that is necessary.

Bu a topic language like this, to get information across, tha language is in reality a common system of measure.

In ordser to produce anything, and here we talk REPRODUCE anything, we need to have a common ground a base to work from, so that "disasters" happen.

We are discussing such a disaster. The guy did not get a result.

WHY?

Because some nitwits (sorry blood pressure is rising) decided that in the whole universe, this single developer, Caffenol was the only one where noone needs to pay any attention to proper measure. This in contrast to ALL the other discussions about developers where the discussion revolves about milligrams of this or that.....

Why did it it fail in this case? because he was misguided into believing that one single milliliter (1cc) of some vitamine juice, that most liukely contains only 0.25 gram of ascorbate, was enough. This in contrast to the real world where at least 10 gram is needed for a tank-full of developer.

If you do the calculation its easy to see that the "american way" led the guy to use only 1/40th of the necessary vitamin-C!

Reinhold and his Caffenol-blog is the strongest advocate if this principle, getting science and order into the fun of Caffenol.

But being meticolous takes abssolutely NO FUN out of this! Quite the contrary, after you KNOW HOW, after you have mastered the skill, after you have successfully developed some films, you can relacs, and be sloppy. Just like succesful artists, only the skillful can be sloppy!

Erik

removed account4 · Nov 29, 2010

sorry erik

the reason why joel didn't get any results is that he used the wrong ingredients ... it had nothing to do with measurements.

it seems to me that you are upset that some folks don't do things your way so you call them names ...

maybe it is YOU that doesn't get it ???

Removed Account2 · Nov 29, 2010

Sloppy does, sloppy is.

It is well known after meticolous studies, at various blogs and sites elsewhere, that Coffee alone does not work very well.
So if he didn't get the right coffee, WHO should have told him so?

The sloppy guys that try to paint a picture that it does not matter what you do, what you mix and in what order?

Seems to me he did exactly as advocated by (among others) you. Only he did not have the infathomable luck to get exactly what he needed without proper advice.

I gather you drive a car? I gather you have a drivers licence? I gather you understand that proper training is both required (for a reason) and necessary?

removed account4 · Nov 29, 2010

erik

i have suggested people use washing soda, cheap ( robusta ) instant coffee
and powdered vit C ... and a little print developer ...
to experiment and have a good time

where have i said anything else ?

the only thing i have strayed from are people ( like you )
who say things that aren't true.

* YAWN *

guitstik · Nov 29, 2010

John, Eric, you are both correct. Eric in stating that having a basic working knowledge of the principles and John in your loose standards producing repeatable results. Eric, in reloading ammunition you want extremely accurate measurements to avoid catastrophic results on the range. To much gun powder in the case can create havoc and to little can cause a stoppage in the barrel that can also lead to a problem. John, the creative process of caffenol gives us the ability to be a little bit more flexible in the mixing. A great chef can simply meter out the ingredients in what appears to the untrained eye as a chaotic process but the beginner needs to measure to the exact to achieve similar results.

My mistake was that I had the basic ingredients but I did not realize that there was a difference in them. As with gun powder, you would not use shot gun powder in place of rifle or handgun even tho they have the same makeup they are different and will produce differing results. I bought what I thought was the cheapest and thus the correct instant coffee, not realizing that the Arabica would produce the results it did and the same with the Fruit-Fresh. I was careful with the measure of the ingredients but still ended up with the incorrect results.

I respect the information that I have received from everyone on this subject and I will, with time, figure this out and be able to produce the results that I am looking for. It was better that I try and fail on my first attempt that way I could get a better understanding of what I need to do "correctly" the next time. I now have, what I hope, are the correct ingredients and when I receive the ascorbic acid I will make another attempt.

Caffenol-C tragedy

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