C41problem

adamlugi · Jun 28, 2023

Hi,

I just saw the scans of my C41 call.

This is the first time I see something like this .

Fuji C41 chemistry fresh , Jobo Atl2plus processor. Jobo 25xx.

All hundreds of films were Ok ,

Films also fresh .

Can you help me.

koraks · Jun 28, 2023

Looks like uneven wetting; possible causes like film stuck to itself on the roll, insufficient processing chemistry, tank/machine not level, too slow drain & pour times, etc.
Scans suggest insufficient overall density; might be partly underdeveloped, although systematic underexposure also seems plausible given these scenes.

Did you process these?

As usual, a good photograph of the actual negatives against a backlight might give some more clues.

In any cases, there's at least one major processing problem in the wet stage going on. There may be additional problems.

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

Thank you for your reply .

The whole process with me looks the same and nothing like this has ever happened before.

The only change is the chemistry. Previously I used Fujihunt c41 kit(5 liters) now I used Fujihunt c41RA chemistry.

I used the times from the instructions:

FD -3:15

BL - 1:00

Water - 1:00 - this is not in the instructions

FX- 1:30

Water- 3 :00

Stabilizer- 1:30.

The temperature was Ok -38 degrees

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

In the bulletin Fujihunt is information that streaks can arise due to poor rinsing .

In this case it would only be possible to make it too short . I extended them twice vs the instructions.

koraks · Jun 29, 2023

adamlugi said:
The only change is the chemistry. Previously I used Fujihunt c41 kit(5 liters) now I used Fujihunt c41RA chemistry.

You also adopted the RA times for bleach and fixer, though. That's a significant change as well. I suspect those times are too short for the kind of machine you use. These RA times assume that the film really spends the full time of each step in the chemistry. With your Jobo, it takes some time for the tank to fill. I suspect at least part of your film has retained silver because it's not entirely blrached and/or fixed. Try increasing the bleach and fix times to e.g. 3 minutes each.

Btw, the water rinse step between bleach and fix doesn't hurt, but it doesn't have to be this long. It's OK as it is though.

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

koraks said:
You also adopted the RA times for bleach and fixer, though. That's a significant change as well. I suspect those times are too short for the kind of machine you use. These RA times assume that the film really spends the full time of each step in the chemistry. With your Jobo, it takes some time for the tank to fill. I suspect at least part of your film has retained silver because it's not entirely blrached and/or fixed. Try increasing the bleach and fix times to e.g. 3 minutes each.

Btw, the water rinse step between bleach and fix doesn't hurt, but it doesn't have to be this long. It's OK as it is though.

Is there a chance to save these films ? By doing the last 2 baths again ?

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

Will FD in the future also be extended by the time FD is poured from the tank?

koraks · Jun 29, 2023

adamlugi said:
Is there a chance to save these films ? By doing the last 2 baths again ?

Yeah sure, just rebleach and refix Can be done manually in a try, even at room temperature. Just do it for 6 minutes or so for each bath if you don't do this at 38C.

adamlugi said:
Will FD in the future also be extended by the time FD is poured from the tank?

I'm not sure what you mean. Color developer in C41 is always 3:15 at 38C, except for one or two off standard kits on the market.

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

I meant that Jobo raises the tank 20 seconds before the end , that is after 2:55 minutes. He pours About 10 seconds, so we lose About 30 seconds and the question is whether it is necessary to extend it then ?

koraks · Jun 29, 2023

Well, that's the problem with an automated Jobo. You never know exactly how much time the film spends in contact with the chemistry. It'll probably also vary depending on which end of the roll you're looking at; the film closest to the core will be the last to be submersed and the first to be drained dry. It will also depend on how much chemistry is in the tank.

What you could try is figure out how long it takes exactly before the tank is drained; you can probably hear/tell this (I don't have hands-on experience with the 2500). Then compensate the processing times for this 'drain time'.

Btw, the 20-second early lift is possibly responsible for your insufficient bleach/fix issue, too. And if that's the case, it's also to be expected that you've been consistently under-developing all of your film up to this point.

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

I mainly preferred e6 and there I have everything strip checked , and now I do more c41 and unfortunately do not have strips

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

I previously used the c41 kit and there the times of the 2nd and 3rd baths are much longer which % 20 seconds did not give such a radical error

koraks · Jun 29, 2023

There still are C41 control strips out there; maybe it's worth a shot. It'll take a bit of trial and error to get everything within the permissible margins, but with a little bit of luck it can be done.

adamlugi said:
the times of the 2nd and 3rd baths are much longer which % 20 seconds did not give such a radical error

Yeah that's the problem with those short RA times. But it's safe to make these steps longer since there's no risk of "over-bleaching" etc. Both bleach and fix go to completion, so it's fine to stretch them by 100% or even more if you feel like it.

L Gebhardt · Jun 29, 2023

I don’t think the developer drain time will affect the film like that. You had previously good results with the same time.

It looks to me like the tank or cap was still wet and water got on the film while it was warming up.

Another possible issue is you do the final rinse on the reels. Jobo reels, and maybe tanks, build up rinse agents which can cause issues. I now do all my final rinses off the reels. Very hot water and scrubbing with a toothbrush can remove it.

adamlugi · Jun 29, 2023

koraks said:
There still are C41 control strips out there; maybe it's worth a shot. It'll take a bit of trial and error to get everything within the permissible margins, but with a little bit of luck it can be done.

G
Yeah that's the problem with those short RA times. But it's safe to make these steps longer since there's no risk of "over-bleaching" etc. Both bleach and fix go to completion, so it's fine to stretch them by 100% or even more if you feel like it.

Thanks

L Gebhardt said:
I don’t think the developer drain time will affect the film like that. You had previously good results with the same time.

It looks to me like the tank or cap was still wet and water got on the film while it was warming up.

Another possible issue is you do the final rinse on the reels. Jobo reels, and maybe tanks, build up rinse agents which can cause issues. I now do all my final rinses off the reels. Very hot water and scrubbing with a toothbrush can remove it.

General rather it is not FD's fault, the conversation about FD is about developing . About the failure of these photos we talked about too short BL time because only Ok 50% time.

koraks · Jun 29, 2023

L Gebhardt said:
I don’t think the developer drain time will affect the film like that.

I agree. As stated earlier, I suspect the bleach & fix were incomplete since RA times were used, and those are so short that drain and fill times become a significant factor. See message exchange above.

L Gebhardt · Jun 29, 2023

Yes, probably best to just correct the bleach and fix times and then see if the mottling and streaking goes away. I have seen streaking from water left in a cap, but not all over like the examples.

lamerko · Jun 29, 2023

It looks like silver precipitate. Maybe something with the fixation? I've seen it on black and white film and paper, but not color...

adamlugi · Aug 7, 2023

Hi ,

After long discussions with Fuji Poland engineers and tests with longer times, a thorough verification of the whole process ( the problem persisted ) we have come to the conclusion that the problem lies with not matching the chemistry to the rotary process. The solution may be to use an acid interrupter after the first development. Fuji even suggests using blech at a maximum concentration of 10% plus vinegar 1:10.

I'll have to check it out. A colleague who uses RA chemistry uses water with vinegar and notes no problems with streaking.

Do you have any suggestions ?

koraks · Aug 7, 2023

adamlugi said:
the problem lies with not matching the chemistry to the rotary process.

I'm really surprised about this, because there's nothing about this chemistry that would make it inherently problematic with rotary processing.
I've been using FUJI RA color negative chemistry for years in rotary processing and it works just fine. I don't use a Jobo with lift, but a simple CPE2 where I do the mounting and filling/draining manually.

A stop bath won't hurt and is worth a try. I use cleaning vinegar; something like 1+10 with water. The ratio isn't critical in the least.

halfaman · Aug 7, 2023

Never had any problem with streaks with C41. I use since years Fuji Hunt Environeg LR developer and Negacolor RA Bleach, for fixer I still use Kodak Flexicolor RA fixer.

I am familiar with streaks in RA4 and all of them were due to carryover within the lift. I do two things:

1. After lifting up the tank, it only goes down once and I add the next bath as soon it is horizontal.
2 After final rinse and tak is out of the jobo, I move the lift down to drain the water inside.

adamlugi · Aug 7, 2023

I used Fuji C41 Press kit 5l chemistry all the time.

I never had a problem.

Streaking to a greater extent occurs in 120 and 4x5 format . In 35 format to a lesser extent.

Streaks after reversing have a blue color .

Fuji employee claims that in a continuous press the chemistry is "squeezed out" and here it is still moving through the film and this can cause streaking in these areas.

I really have no idea what it could be in this case

I have ATL rally so the whole process is done without my interference .

I developed E6 yesterday and have no problems .

I have a huge problem with it !

adamlugi · Aug 7, 2023

On the emulsion side fil cinestill also has such a milky coating , except at the edges . Fuji calling in the same correx does not have this

koraks · Aug 7, 2023

adamlugi said:
Streaking to a greater extent occurs in 120 and 4x5 format . In 35 format to a lesser extent.

Try a pre-rinse. I had uneven development issues (not just color, but B&W too) with 120 and 4x5 in Jobo 1500 and 2100 tanks. A pre-rinse made an improvement for me.

I agree with @halfaman that the issue may be related to the lift. In my mind, it might either be due to the ATL taking too long to drain and re-fill the tank, or it might be a contamination issue.

I can't explain why your E6 comes out fine or why the problem only occurs with the present RA chemistry.

halfaman · Aug 7, 2023

adamlugi said:
On the emulsion side fil cinestill also has such a milky coating , except at the edges . Fuji calling in the same correx does not have this

Most of my streak problems in RA4 dissapeared with a stop bath, so it rang a bell when you mentioned it.

If you can run a process in your ATL without tank and with water as chemicals you can check if there is any relevant carryover in the lift after discarding a bath and going back down.

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