C41 - white milky streaks bugging the hell out of me

MacLureo · Jan 9, 2021

I posted this on Reddit but with little luck, hopefully there’s more insight on here.

C41 streaking problem - help

I’ve developed 10ish rolls of C41 since I started learning in October, on most rolls I’ve gotten these strange streaks. Here’s my most recent example...

It’s quite bad as you can see.

But I do everything by the book! The book being this Kodak Publication (https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis211-Flexicolor_in_small_tank.pdf) on doing C-41 at home with a small tank. Albeit, I use Tetenal chemistry, but I use this method since Tetenal outlines no instructions for small tanks.

In this case, all chemicals were mixed yesterday with deionised water and sat in a Sous Vide controlled water bath until chemicals were heated to 38°.

5 min presoak (38°)

3:15 min development, 30 sec initial agitation, followed by 2 sec of agitation every 15 secs.

6:30 min Bliz. 30 sec initial agitation, followed by 5 sec of agitation every 15 secs. I diverted from Tetenal’s instructions here, only because I thought these streaks were maybe due to under-fixing.

3-4ish rinse. I take the light tight lid part of the Paterson tank to do this part, washing the film directly since at first I thought the wash stage was the problem. I previously just kept that part on and let the water get in that way. I also dunk the reel into a Water/Photo-Flo solution for a minute, lightly agitating.

1 min Stab. I agitate for 30 secs then let it sit.

I then leave to dry, hanging vertically, squeegeeing them with wet fingers a couple of times.

I would really appreciate any insight into this problem, and - if possible- any remedies for this roll? This streaking problem has been driving me nuts for months! Admittedly, it’s also put me off doing C-41 at home all together. But I’m sure many of you don’t get this problem so there must be a way!!

MacLureo · Jan 9, 2021

Ops, I don’t think the image uploaded properly. I’ll try again.

MattKing · Jan 9, 2021

I would suggest that you replace the stabilizer with Kodak Final Rinse.

MacLureo · Jan 9, 2021

MattKing said:
I would suggest that you replace the stabilizer with Kodak Final Rinse.

Thanks for the suggestion! Just ordered some, got a small 50ml version from a website for £2 (minus delivery). Do you squeegee your film after it or do you just let it dry?

Tel · Jan 9, 2021

I got similar streaks (intermittently) when I first began doing C-41 until I stopped using the stabilizer. Now I just finish with distilled water and a squeegee. Works well.

I follow the Unicolor method, whether using dry chemistry or wet (modified to exclude the stab.):
1 minute presoak at working temp. (102F/38C)
3.5 minutes developer (15 second initial agitation, four inversions every 30 seconds thereafter)
6.5 min blix, same agitation as dev.
3 minutes rinsing in tap water at temp close to working temp
1 minute distilled water rinse at room temp.
Hang, squeegee, scan when dry.

Been using this method for 6+ years; I typically get upwards of 20 rolls per liter of chems.

PS: For removal of the marks, you might try Pec-12. I've had success with it (before I stopped using stabilizer)

MattKing · Jan 9, 2021

The Final Rinse includes a bactericide, which is important for negative longevity. It should be the last solution to touch your film. It also includes a wetting agent - essentially Photo-flo, which aids in clean drying.
Squeegees are problematic. You need high quality squeegees kept scrupulously clean and used with the correct technique, otherwise they can seriously damage film.
I don't use squeegees.

grat · Jan 10, 2021

How much photo-flo are you using? You shouldn't be using any if you're using stabilizer (fungicide + photo-flo 200) as well, but it looks like you're using a significant amount.

When I use it on B&W, I use a little less than 1 drop per 100ml-- so about 4 drops on 500ml.

Also, my Unicolor kit says add Stabilizer, agitate for 15 seconds, let sit for a minute, then drain-- and at that point, pull the film, and hang it up to dry.

foc · Jan 10, 2021

You have great advice above.
Regarding squeegees, as Mat has said you need a good quality squeegee and it has to be kept clean,
I have squeegeed my films for the last 35 years and never had a problem.
If you wish to use a squeegee, I found the following helps.
In something like a mixing/graduated cylinder, immerse your squeegee in warm water with some of your final rinse.
Leave it there for about 5 minutes.
Then gently run your finger along the blades, which should be supple, and you will feel for any grit/dirt on the blades.
Then you apply your squeegee to the film, it should just kiss the film and move the blade in one smooth movement.

I know some would like to burn me at the stake for suggesting squeegee, but it does work.

AgX · Jan 10, 2021

Instead of a squeegee one also can use ones hands... works perfectly.

Bikerider · Jan 10, 2021

AgX said:
Instead of a squeegee one also can use ones hands... works perfectly.

Yes, no squeegee please, a certain recipe for scratches.

pentaxuser · Jan 10, 2021

So if we leave the do or don't squeegee to one side for a minute then McLureo's problem is simply what? I can see no mention of him using other than stabiliser which I presume he should and he uses his fingers instead of a squeegee anyway

I presume he uses the stabiliser as stated on the instructions. Doesn't the stabiliser include the fungicide as well? So are we saying that the stabiliser he uses and his extra 15 secs of agitation i.e. his 30 secs compared to grat's 15 secs are the two causes?

McLureo, whose stabiliser is this and do you use it at the strength the maker recommends?

By the way in case anyone mentions this as a ;possible cause, my recollection of Glasgow water is that it is extremely soft with none of the usual problems associated with the kind of streaks that can be formed from hard water

McLureo, in case this comes up as a possible cause can I ask that you confirm that Glasgow water is still soft?

Thanks

pentaxuser

MacLureo · Jan 10, 2021

pentaxuser said:
So if we leave the do or don't squeegee to one side for a minute then McLureo's problem is simply what? I can see no mention of him using other than stabiliser which I presume he should and he uses his fingers instead of a squeegee anyway

I presume he uses the stabiliser as stated on the instructions. Doesn't the stabiliser include the fungicide as well? So are we saying that the stabiliser he uses and his extra 15 secs of agitation i.e. his 30 secs compared to grat's 15 secs are the two causes?

McLureo, whose stabiliser is this and do you use it at the strength the maker recommends?

By the way in case anyone mentions this as a ;possible cause, my recollection of Glasgow water is that it is extremely soft with none of the usual problems associated with the kind of streaks that can be formed from hard water

McLureo, in case this comes up as a possible cause can I ask that you confirm that Glasgow water is still soft?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I use the stabiliser that comes with my Tetenal kit, and diluted according to the instructions supplied. Again, mixed the day prior and used on
once before my example.

And yes, Glasgow water is still soft. Best in the world, apparently! Which is why I’m reluctant to believe it’s simply a drying mark issue.

On top of that, I mixed the chemistry with “de-ionised water”, which is the closed equivalent to “de-mineralised water” I’ve heard people recommend online, but I’m not sure the differences - if any. So even if my local water is the problem, which I’m sure it isn’t since places with worse water quality get clean results, the only time my tap is used is in the rinsing stage.

But with this example, I added just a little bit of photo-flo at the end of the wash stage, agitate, let it set, then pour out and move onto the stabiliser stage.

It really is a massive headache, and I thank you for trying to get to the bottom of it with me.

MacLureo · Jan 10, 2021

Tel said:
I got similar streaks (intermittently) when I first began doing C-41 until I stopped using the stabilizer. Now I just finish with distilled water and a squeegee. Works well.

I follow the Unicolor method, whether using dry chemistry or wet (modified to exclude the stab.):
1 minute presoak at working temp. (102F/38C)
3.5 minutes developer (15 second initial agitation, four inversions every 30 seconds thereafter)
6.5 min blix, same agitation as dev.
3 minutes rinsing in tap water at temp close to working temp
1 minute distilled water rinse at room temp.
Hang, squeegee, scan when dry.

Been using this method for 6+ years; I typically get upwards of 20 rolls per liter of chems.

PS: For removal of the marks, you might try Pec-12. I've had success with it (before I stopped using stabilizer)

Thanks for your suggestions! I’ll definitely have a look into Pec-12 for my grim negatives lol

pentaxuser · Jan 10, 2021

MacLureo said:
It really is a massive headache, and I thank you for trying to get to the bottom of it with me.

Yes unfortunately in terms of pinpointing a cause, you have said everything I was expecting you to say so it remains a big headache for me as well in terms of a cause

Here's a thought. When you complete the water rinse and squeegee with your fingers and hang to dry it might be worthwhile to leave the film until it dries and see if the problem has gone. If it has then that suggests as has been strongly hinted at here by at least one member that your Tetenal stabiliser may be at fault

The above is one way to find out. If this does solve the problem then yes another stabiliser might be called for and in that case I'd then complain to the Tetenal stockist that supplies the kit and contact Tetenal as well

As I understand matters you will not pass any point of no return if the stabiliser is not applied immediately at the end of processing. It can be used later. The bugs do not attack immediately after kick off

pentaxuser

foc · Jan 10, 2021

MacLureo said:
But with this example, I added just a little bit of photo-flo at the end of the wash stage, agitate, let it set, then pour out and move onto the stabiliser stage.

I think this may be your problem.
Don't use a wetting agent (photoflo) with C41.
I would suggest you do not use the stabiliser at all (films after 2000 don't need it). Instead use Kodak final rinse or buy the Fuji equivalent like these.

MacLureo · Jan 10, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Yes unfortunately in terms of pinpointing a cause, you have said everything I was expecting you to say so it remains a big headache for me as well in terms of a cause

Here's a thought. When you complete the water rinse and squeegee with your fingers and hang to dry it might be worthwhile to leave the film until it dries and see if the problem has gone. If it has then that suggests as has been strongly hinted at here by at least one member that your Tetenal stabiliser may be at fault

The above is one way to find out. If this does solve the problem then yes another stabiliser might be called for and in that case I'd then complain to the Tetenal stockist that supplies the kit and contact Tetenal as well

As I understand matters you will not pass any point of no return if the stabiliser is not applied immediately at the end of processing. It can be used later. The bugs do not attack immediately after kick off

pentaxuser

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll try that next time I develop and report back. Shouldn’t be too long.

MacLureo · Jan 10, 2021

foc said:
I think this may be your problem.
Don't use a wetting agent (photoflo) with C41.
I would suggest you do not use the stabiliser at all (films after 2000 don't need it). Instead use Kodak final rinse or buy the Fuji equivalent like these.
View attachment 263436

Thanks for the recommendation! I actually did buy some Kodak Final Rinse yesterday, saw it was £2ish from some shop in the UK in small 50ml bottles. They must rebottle it into more manageable quantities.

Looking forward to see if it helps, I’ve heard similar reports after digging through Reddit. But why would Tetenal’s equivalent product be so much inferior? That’s what I don’t get

Sirius Glass · Jan 10, 2021

MattKing said:
The Final Rinse includes a bactericide, which is important for negative longevity. It should be the last solution to touch your film. It also includes a wetting agent - essentially Photo-flo, which aids in clean drying.
Squeegees are problematic. You need high quality squeegees kept scrupulously clean and used with the correct technique, otherwise they can seriously damage film.
I don't use squeegees.

+1
I completely agree. I recommend that when you hang the film to use a paper towel to touch just the lowest corner(s) of the film to draw off the fluids.

pentaxuser · Jan 10, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
+1
I completely agree. I recommend that when you hang the film to use a paper towel to touch just the lowest corner(s) of the film to draw off the fluids.

I am confused now. If what I assume to be Kodak Final Rinse or indeed anything termed in a similar way as a C41 final rinse contains a bactericide then doesn't stabiliser contain the same so unless McLureo has a bad batch of stabiliser it should work equally well?

I take it that there is nothing wrong with stuff labelled "stabiliser" per se?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Jan 10, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I am confused now. If what I assume to be Kodak Final Rinse or indeed anything termed in a similar way as a C41 final rinse contains a bactericide then doesn't stabiliser contain the same so unless McLureo has a bad batch of stabiliser it should work equally well?

I take it that there is nothing wrong with stuff labelled "stabiliser" per se?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Stabilizer contains a surfactant and a bactericide and should be used as a final rinse for C41 development. It should not be washed off.

foc · Jan 10, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I am confused now. If what I assume to be Kodak Final Rinse or indeed anything termed in a similar way as a C41 final rinse contains a bactericide then doesn't stabiliser contain the same so unless McLureo has a bad batch of stabiliser it should work equally well?

I take it that there is nothing wrong with stuff labelled "stabiliser" per se?

Thanks

pentaxuser

There is nothing wrong with stabiliser but it is not necessary for films made after 2000 approx. You just need the final rinse which usually contains a bactericide.
Final rinse (or Fuji Conditioning Tablets) when mixed look just like water.
Stabiliser when mixed looks like a wetting agent, it looks soapy. If agitated, you end up with lots of suds/bubbles.
I have never seen the milky streaks as shown by the OP, on a film with final rinse but I have seen these exact marks on film that have been through stabiliser.
Personally, I find it hard to understand why manufacturers put (a basically redundant chemical) in a C41 developing kit. Why not just pack it with final rinse.

MattKing · Jan 10, 2021

To add complexity, the possibility exists that Tetenal uses "stabilizer" as its name for its version of Final Rinse - which would be confusing, due to the very real differences between the older Kodak product called "Stabilizer" and the current Kodak product called "Final Rinse".
But more simply, if I recall correctly, others have had similar sorts of problems with products other than Kodak Final Rinse or Fuji Conditioning Tablets.
And I agree, don't use Photo-flo, use Final Rinse.

Tel · Jan 10, 2021

There is something wrong, per se. Like the other chemicals in C-41 development, stabiliser is highly toxic. The Unicolor instructions warn against any skin contact, eye contact or ingestion and recommend immediate medical attention if any of those things occur. It is anything but benign.

pentaxuser · Jan 10, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Stabilizer contains a surfactant and a bactericide and should be used as a final rinse for C41 development. It should not be washed off.

Yes I'd agree but the OP does not wash it off so surely we return to the question of whether the OP stabiliser is bad/wrong/faulty/ not up to standard. Stabiliser is indeed the right stuff to use, the only question being is the particular bottle of stabiliser that that the OP may not be the right stuff

pentaxuser

mnemosyne · Jan 11, 2021

it seems "stabilizer" is simply Tetenal's wording for "final rinse".
IIRC there have been reports in the past of Tetenal final rinse leaving marks even when mixed and applied according to prescription
going by the pics, this milky/cloudy stuff sure looks like some residue from the final bath
final rinse contains a surfactant, using photoflo or similar before or after final rinse is detrimental
you should skip the final rinse (or replace it with photoflo) only if long term stability of your film is not a concern
I currently use Fuji's final rinse (included C41 X-Press kit) and have had zero problems with drying marks or stains

C41 - white milky streaks bugging the hell out of me

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C41 - white milky streaks bugging the hell out of me

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