C41 success....finally!!

HumbleP · Jan 30, 2013

OK APUG-ers, I realise this is a walk in the park for all you experienced folk but I thought I'd better share my first success given that I've been pestering this forum with my newbie questions over the past few months. All chemical components mixed from scratch, thanks to this Forum or I probably would have given up on mixing my own.

Especially thanks to stefan4u, polyglot, Gerald, Athiril and of course PE for patiently answering questions.

And.....One more question!

Obviously there's a lot of dirt. This seems to be from the bleach which I noticed had a lot of sediment in it when I first mixed it. I guess I will need to strain it. Is there something I might be doing wrong to be getting so much sediment in my bleach?

Peter

TareqPhoto · Jan 30, 2013

Congratulations!

I didn't follow your questions and post in this forum, but can you tell me which chemicals did you use? did you make them from scratch or buy them ready made? Which film did you use here?

I asked because i shoot color film too and i always send it to the lab for processing and even i can do it at home but i can't get the chemicals yet and i don't want to screw up with temp/chem of colors, i will stick with B&W and later i will buy that new upcoming processor to help me processing all my films without any issue or confusing steps if so.

HumbleP · Jan 30, 2013

Hey Tareq,

I'm just using a Patterson tank and maintaining temp using a tub of hot tap water to pre-heat the solutions.

The recipe's were mostly sourced here on this forum. In any case, you can see my exact formulas I've used here (my blog)

The film in this case was cheap old Lucky 200.

Regards,
Peter

keyofnight · Jan 30, 2013

Wow! Congratulations. Thanks for giving us your formulae too… I'll probably try your bleach at some point.

SpunkySpine · Jan 30, 2013

I'm no one to answer any of your questions regarding your c41 processing.

I must congratulate you on the quality of your color.

But the spotting on the negatives I know is your next quality control project.
You know where the problem lies with the gritty residue.

Now your mentors will assist you there I'm sure.

I'd celebrate with a swig of wine... crack open the vintage wine when you have everything under complete control!

Well done!

Rudolf Karachun · Jan 30, 2013

Congratulations, and thanks for the recipes.

HumbleP · Jan 30, 2013

Thanks. I'll crack the vintage when I reach my ultimate goal of successfully processing 16mm color neg...getting there

polyglot · Jan 30, 2013

That's awesome once you get the spotting issue solved.

StoneNYC · Jan 30, 2013

THIS IS AWESOME!! you seem to be having more success than me in my quest for a make it yourself E6 setup... wow you're doing great!

StoneNYC · Jan 31, 2013

A few questions...

What did you use to measure mg?

What did you use to measure exacting ph? Are there strips sensitive enough to measure so accurately?

Also

Your formula says sodium thiosulphite but the linked formula says ammonium thiosulphate which means the active ingredient is the thiosulphate/ite which has a different oxygen structure and has a different activity level, so making sure you didn't mistaking list the wrong compound.

I'm not a chemist but my dad is so I sent him the formula and he asked about the above.

Thanks.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

polyglot · Jan 31, 2013

StoneNYC said:
What did you use to measure mg?

I can't answer for the OP, but the usual approach is to make a dilution. Dissolve 10g (or whatever you can measure quite accurately) into 500mL then top it up to 1L, that gives you 10mg/mL. Mix it well, dilute it another 10x to get 1mg/mL and then measure 1.4mL into your developer with a syringe or pipette.

HumbleP · Jan 31, 2013

Hi Stone,

Firstly regards the ammonium....

I can't source ammonium thiosulphate here in Australia so I had to go with sodium tthiosulphate instead. I have no direct experience with the difference but all my research tells me the the ammonium thiosulphate is far more effective as a fixing agent as it acts much faster that sodium thiosulphate.

So in short, if you can get ammonium thiosulphate then definitely go with that.

As to the mg measurement well my first batch I (luckily) guestimated it!

Yesterday I asked stefan4u the exact same question. His answer is basically the same as what polyglot suggests, ie make a dilution and use that. I will certainly be using that method next time I mix.

Stefan4u's answer below: (which is more or less a variation of what polyglot suggests)

"Take one liter of aqua demin and add 1 gramm of Potassium Iodide. 1 ml of this soulution will be 0.001g or 1 mg (1.4mg will be then1.4 ml).
Including all deviations in measurement this is the best / only way to do this at home...
Than take a small syringe and you will be able to come very close to the afforded ammount."

Regards,
Peter

StoneNYC · Jan 31, 2013

HumbleP said:
Hi Stone,

Firstly regards the ammonium....

I can't source ammonium thiosulphate here in Australia so I had to go with sodium tthiosulphate instead. I have no direct experience with the difference but all my research tells me the the ammonium thiosulphate is far more effective as a fixing agent as it acts much faster that sodium thiosulphate.

So in short, if you can get ammonium thiosulphate then definitely go with that.

As to the mg measurement well my first batch I (luckily) guestimated it!

Yesterday I asked stefan4u the exact same question. His answer is basically the same as what polyglot suggests, ie make a dilution and use that. I will certainly be using that method next time I mix.

Stefan4u's answer below: (which is more or less a variation of what polyglot suggests)

"Take one liter of aqua demin and add 1 gramm of Potassium Iodide. 1 ml of this soulution will be 0.001g or 1 mg (1.4mg will be then1.4 ml).
Including all deviations in measurement this is the best / only way to do this at home...
Than take a small syringe and you will be able to come very close to the afforded ammount."

Regards,
Peter

Thanks, that mostly answers what I asked about, however what I was referring to that I think you might have missed was that Thiosulfate and thiosulFITE are two different compounds, and in YOUR fixer formula you use sodium thiosulfIte but in the referenced formula they use ammonium thiosulfAte so I'm wondering if you're able to get sodium thiosulfAte if that exists, my father says that's the active compound and so it would make sense that the sulfate portion would work better than sulfite. Do you understand what I was asking now?

Anyway this is great overall, and good thing I'm not in Australia so I can get the good stuff haha

HumbleP · Feb 1, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Thanks, that mostly answers what I asked about, however what I was referring to that I think you might have missed was that Thiosulfate and thiosulFITE are two different compounds, and in YOUR fixer formula you use sodium thiosulfIte but in the referenced formula they use ammonium thiosulfAte so I'm wondering if you're able to get sodium thiosulfAte if that exists, my father says that's the active compound and so it would make sense that the sulfate portion would work better than sulfite. Do you understand what I was asking now?

Anyway this is great overall, and good thing I'm not in Australia so I can get the good stuff haha

Oh, yes I missed that! haha.

I just double checked: careless typo. I used sulphAte in my recipe!
I will update my other link.

Thanks,
Peter

Rudeofus · Feb 1, 2013

First of all, of course, congrats for your promising results, and thanks for sharing them with us.

I would like to comment on a few things in your setup:

your Ferricyanide bleach seemed to have caused trouble, and the C41 process is not even rated for Ferricyanide bleach (but that's most likely not the cause of these spots). If you can, try to get Ammonium Ferric EDTA or even better, Ammonium Ferric PDTA to make a real C41 bleach. PhotoEngineer has posted a few recipes here on APUG. One big disadvantage of your Ferricyanide bleach is that the Ferricyanide will eventually (within weeks) kill the Thiocyanate and this will render your bleach green, and what's more important, ineffective.
C41 needs a very strong fixer and simply substituting Sodium Thiosulfate for Ammonium Thiosulfate will likely lead to retained Silver. If you really can't get Ammonium Thiosulfate from anywhere in Australia (which I think a bit hard to believe, given that you did get CD4, HAS and the other stuff), you should at least add Ammonium Chloride to your fixer recipe to boost it a bit. There's a formula posted by Ole (there was a url link here which no longer exists), you will have to adjust pH of this brew to reach the pH 6.5 needed by C41. I recommend you skip the Metaborate and use Sodium Metabisulfite to lower pH to 6.5.

StoneNYC · Feb 1, 2013

HumbleP said:
Oh, yes I missed that! haha.

I just double checked: careless typo. I used sulphAte in my recipe!
I will update my other link.

Thanks,
Peter

Oh good!

Also, you list all the other steps as ALSO being ok for E6 but I thought the bleach and fixer were somehow different for E6 or is my memory off?

Have you worked on an E6 formula?

This is great stuff keep it up!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

RPC · Feb 1, 2013

The bleach formula is often listed without the thiocyanate, just 80-90 grams of ferricyanide and 20 or so grams of bromide per liter. I have used it without any apparent problems. A ferricyanide bleach should then be followed by a good wash and according to PE, a sulfite clearing bath.

Photo Engineer · Feb 1, 2013

Very nice results. Congratulations.

The bleach is not supposed to have any sediment. Ferricyanide and Bromide mix quite happily (I think OTOMH that is what you used). Anyhow, that is probably the source of the problem. You should not have to filter any fresh mixed solution.

PE

HumbleP · Feb 1, 2013

Rudeofus said:
First of all, of course, congrats for your promising results, and thanks for sharing them with us.

I would like to comment on a few things in your setup:

your Ferricyanide bleach seemed to have caused trouble, and the C41 process is not even rated for Ferricyanide bleach (but that's most likely not the cause of these spots). If you can, try to get Ammonium Ferric EDTA or even better, Ammonium Ferric PDTA to make a real C41 bleach. PhotoEngineer has posted a few recipes here on APUG. One big disadvantage of your Ferricyanide bleach is that the Ferricyanide will eventually (within weeks) kill the Thiocyanate and this will render your bleach green, and what's more important, ineffective.

C41 needs a very strong fixer and simply substituting Sodium Thiosulfate for Ammonium Thiosulfate will likely lead to retained Silver. If you really can't get Ammonium Thiosulfate from anywhere in Australia (which I think a bit hard to believe, given that you did get CD4, HAS and the other stuff), you should at least add Ammonium Chloride to your fixer recipe to boost it a bit. There's a formula posted by Ole (there was a url link here which no longer exists), you will have to adjust pH of this brew to reach the pH 6.5 needed by C41. I recommend you skip the Metaborate and use Sodium Metabisulfite to lower pH to 6.5.

Thanks,
That's good to know about the bleach.

As for the other chemicals, firstly I already had most of them which I inherited from a friend who was wanting to get rid of them. I put in a lot of time trying to source the others. I already had CD4. I can confirm that CD4 is impossible to get here. No one in the States will mail it here. I even got my Chinese friend to email China to ask about CD4. No luck. (same for CD3) HAS I found a supply on Ebay in Estonia!! A few others came from UK and Sodium Thiosyanate came from Sth Korea!
Actually I did find one supply of Ammonium Thiosulphate in Australia but the cost was $199 for 500grams! Seemed ridiculous.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "I recommend you skip the Metaborate and use Sodium Metabisulfite to lower pH to 6.5." Where did I use metaborate?

Cheers,
Peter

Rudeofus · Feb 1, 2013

HumbleP said:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "I recommend you skip the Metaborate and use Sodium Metabisulfite to lower pH to 6.5." Where did I use metaborate?

You didn't, but Ole's recipe lists it. My recommendation for a fixer would be start with Ole's quantities for Sodium Thiosulfate, Ammonium Chloride and Sodium Sulfite, then add Sodium Metabisulfite until you reach pH 6.5. Note that this is not the best fixer you can possibly mix for C41, but it may be one of the best fixers you can make easily without Ammonium Thiosulfate (yes, $200 for 500g is ridiculous). If you think there may be Silver Halide left after the fixing step, you could do two bath fixing for good measure.

PS: Have you tried contacting Fototechnik Suvatlar? They stock the whole range of photo chemistry and may ship to Australia.

HumbleP · Feb 1, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Oh good!

Also, you list all the other steps as ALSO being ok for E6 but I thought the bleach and fixer were somehow different for E6 or is my memory off?

Have you worked on an E6 formula?

This is great stuff keep it up!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Stone,
Oh, I understand there's some difference in chems for E6....that is a bit misleading.
I haven't done E6 yet. I still need to try to source some chemicals. (It's a pain in the butt trying to get certain chemicals down under)
It seems CD3 is impossible for us to get.

Also, to answer an earlier question of yours, I'm just using pH strips with 1 - 14 indication. So not too accurate but good enough for Jazz!

Are you mixing E6 from scratch? Any joy?
Peter

HumbleP · Feb 1, 2013

Rudeofus said:
You didn't, but Ole's recipe lists it. My recommendation for a fixer would be start with Ole's quantities for Sodium Thiosulfate, Ammonium Chloride and Sodium Sulfite, then add Sodium Metabisulfite until you reach pH 6.5. Note that this is not the best fixer you can possibly mix for C41, but it may be one of the best fixers you can make easily without Ammonium Thiosulfate (yes, $200 for 500g is ridiculous). If you think there may be Silver Halide left after the fixing step, you could do two bath fixing for good measure.

PS: Have you tried contacting Fototechnik Suvatlar? They stock the whole range of photo chemistry and may ship to Australia.

Thank you, thank you....I will investigate!

Photo Engineer · Feb 1, 2013

You know, that price for Ammonium Thiosulfate looks like the price for the powder or crystalline form. The usual Ammonium Thiosulfate used in the photo industry is supplied as a solution in water and is about 10x - 100x lower in price, if available in Australia. You might want to check that out.

PE

HumbleP · Feb 1, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
You know, that price for Ammonium Thiosulfate looks like the price for the powder or crystalline form. The usual Ammonium Thiosulfate used in the photo industry is supplied as a solution in water and is about 10x - 100x lower in price, if available in Australia. You might want to check that out.

PE

Thanks, I'll double check. The supplier was a science/lab supplies specialist so now that you mention it that sounds right.

FYI, I strained my bleach and did another few rolls which seemed to get rid of most of the spotting. Still a bit dirty but much better.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42984118@N06/sets/72157632664036290/

HumbleP · Feb 1, 2013

Rudeofus said:
your Ferricyanide bleach seemed to have caused trouble, and the C41 process is not even rated for Ferricyanide bleach (but that's most likely not the cause of these spots). If you can, try to get Ammonium Ferric EDTA or even better, Ammonium Ferric PDTA to make a real C41 bleach.

An initial search at local suppliers only lists Ferric Ammonia Citrate, brown or green as available. Am I right to assume this is NOT the same as what you're suggesting above?

C41 success....finally!!

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