C41 Recipe

HumbleP · Nov 8, 2012

Hi,
I'm getting closer to mixing my own C41 recipe and trying a DIY process for the first time.
While I'm learning a lot and I have experience with B&W chemicals, I'm basically a beginner.
In the recipe below I've managed to source everything except for Hydroxylamine Sulphate.
I'm wondering if some of you knowledgeable folk here can tell me if there is anything else I could substitute or source that would serve the same purpose?

Edit: I can't find CD4 either....so question applies to this as well

C41 Recipe:
Color developer
Potassium carbonate 64.0 g
Sodium sulfite, anhydrous 7.0 g
Potassium bromide 3.0 g
Hydroxylamine sulfate 4.0 g
CD4 10.0 g
Water to 2.0 L

Stop bath
Acetic acid, 5% 400 ml
Water to 2.0 L

Bleach
Potassium ferricyanide 160 g
Potassium Bromide 40 g
Water to 2.0 L

Fixer
Ammonium Thiosulfate, 60% 240 mL
EDTA 2 g
Sodium Bisulfite 24 g
Sodium Hydroxide 5 g
Water to 2.0 L

Thanks.
Peter

Bob-D659 · Nov 8, 2012

Well, sources depend on where in the world are you? Update your profile with at least your country for better answers.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 8, 2012

There is no substitute for the hydroxylamine sulfate nor can you leave it out. It is howwever a common chemical and should be available. The IUPAC name is hydroxyazanium sulfate, CAS number 10039-54-0

Color Developing Agent (CD 4) 4-(N-Ethyl-N-2-hydroxyethyl)-2-methylphenylenediamine sulfate CAS number 25646-77-9

The problem may be in obtaining small amounts of these chemicals.

Athiril · Nov 9, 2012

There is 1 substitute I know of for Hydroxylamine Sulphate, and that is Hydroxylamine Chloride, which is about $100 for 500g shipped from Japan worldwide via eBay iirc. You use less of this than HAS.

As for CD-4.. that's another issue, can be made with precursors, I have the method for that floating around here, but it's not as simple as mixing a developer formulation.

kb3lms · Nov 9, 2012

Peter,

You can get both CD-4 and HAS from Artcraft Chemical or Photographer's Formulary. If you want to mix developers and things they are your friend.

I'd also suggest you make up your chemistry 1 litre at a time unless you are planing to use it one shot. Even so, for a first attempt you may find yourself tweaking it a bit. Color chemistry doesn't last all that long. A few weeks maybe but not months.

Lastly, you will need to add sulfite to your stop bath, or you will get horrible stain on your negatives. The amount to add is in the forums here somewhere. However, you can go overboard and it won't hurt so too much is better than too little. Search under C-41, or ECN-2 maybe. Anyway, the sulfite scavenges any remaining color developer before your bleach step. Without the sulfite any developer remaining in the emulsion will "activate" all the color couplers forming dyes for all the colors that will essentially put a dark brown mask over your negatives. That's a very simplfied explanation but essentially what happens.

Note that stop bath doesn't remove developer, just deactivates it by changing the process to an acid pH instead of alkaline. Developer has to be washed out of the emulsion.

Have fun!

-- Jason

Photo Engineer · Nov 9, 2012

Peter, the developer formula is not correct and you have left out the stabilizer. I do not have the developer formula, but there are good ones posted here and there on the internet. Basically, you must have some Potassium Iodide in the formula, and I believe that the CD4 level is too high. You must also check the pH. It is 10.1.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Nov 9, 2012

Athiril said:
There is 1 substitute I know of for Hydroxylamine Sulphate, and that is Hydroxylamine Chloride

I seem to remember a previous thread where it was said that the two salts were not interchangeable in color developers.

Photo Engineer · Nov 9, 2012

Jerry;

You are correct! The extra Chloride can affect development.

You can use Hydroxyl Amine Sulfate or DiEthyl Hydroxylamine Oxalate. These are both commercially available.

PE

HumbleP · Nov 9, 2012

I'm in Sydney and have updated my profile.
I'll keep researching and trying to source.
Thanks everyone!

Athiril · Nov 9, 2012

HumbleP, you can order Flexicolor LORR developer from Vanbar, instead of tetenal kits, it is much cheaper whether one shot or replenished.

Also the recipe that's best considered online is likely this one (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

But the HAS level is much lower than Flexicolor let alone LORR/LU, meaning it's shelf life is probably shorter.

The shelf life of mixed LORR/LU is double of normal flexicolor, the difference is that it has more carbonate alkali, and double the amount of HAS as regular Flexicolor, while the same amount of CD-4. Not only is the shelf life twice as long, the replenishment rate is halved, meaning 2x as much film per litre.

Photo Engineer said:
Jerry;

You are correct! The extra Chloride can affect development.

You can use Hydroxyl Amine Sulfate or DiEthyl Hydroxylamine Oxalate. These are both commercially available.

PE

I assumed it'd be too weak in the amounts used though. Eg, in the C-27 formula given in my link, it is 2g of HAS, in return, I assume you would use 850mg of the hydroxylamine chloride salt as a substitute, which would result in there being 920mg of KCl in solution per litre wouldn't there?

Photo Engineer · Nov 9, 2012

Well, Chloride is a halide, and there is some interaction. Since color neg is carefully balanced, I would avoid Chloride ion if at all possible. Kodak quit using HAHCl just about when I joined the company for just that reason. In fact, there was none on the shelves when I came there. Everything was HAS and so I did not get to run the experiment comparing the two. I just accepted the "current wisdom" on the subject.

Maybe I should not have, but that was the accepted situation back then.

PE

Athiril · Nov 9, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Well, Chloride is a halide, and there is some interaction. Since color neg is carefully balanced, I would avoid Chloride ion if at all possible. Kodak quit using HAHCl just about when I joined the company for just that reason. In fact, there was none on the shelves when I came there. Everything was HAS and so I did not get to run the experiment comparing the two. I just accepted the "current wisdom" on the subject.

Maybe I should not have, but that was the accepted situation back then.

PE

I just suspect it would be very low, due to it's weak solvent and restraining action in B&W dev's normally needs to be significantly higher to be useful. I do have access to a densitometer which I calibrate before every use, and a Imacon 949, if I get some time, I can plot some colour curves, and do some very high scans to examine grain and sharpness differences using varying NaCl amounts added to C-41 developer.

Photo Engineer · Nov 9, 2012

Well, I would rather be right than wrong.

PE

newcan1 · Nov 11, 2012

The recipe linked in #10 above is the one I use, with very good results.

HumbleP · Nov 15, 2012

Thanks for the response.
Is the "potash" in (there was a url link here which no longer exists) recipe Potassium Hydroxide?
Also, I was a bit confused about the product Calgon. Can you clarify that?
Cheers,
Peter

Athiril · Nov 15, 2012

HumbleP said:
Thanks for the response.
Is the "potash" in (there was a url link here which no longer exists) recipe Potassium Hydroxide?
Also, I was a bit confused about the product Calgon. Can you clarify that?
Cheers,
Peter

Potassium Carbonate iirc.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 15, 2012

Calgon is a calcium sequestering agent used when mixing with tap water. Its chemical name is sodium hexametaphosphate.

HumbleP · Nov 15, 2012

Just wondering about the A905 in the recipe you recommended Athiril. It's a wetting agent right?
Couldn't find much info on that or where to source. Can a product like Forma Flo Wetting Agent
be used instead?

stefan4u · Nov 17, 2012

The A905 is a wetting agent of the former east German company ORWO.
The contemporary equivalent (biocides added) should be Calbe F905
Dead Link Removed

Actually you may omit this agent; I introduced it when I switched to development without prewash step.
It looks like there is no real need for it, just a liter on my shelves is waiting to get used before deteroation

Regards, Stefan

HumbleP · Nov 22, 2012

Thanks everyone for the responses. It's hugely helpful.
I've almost managed to source everything I need, all except for the Formalin in the stabalizer.
I'm wondering if I can leave the formalin out or should I just buy something like Kodak Flex III Stab & rep?
Thanks

Photo Engineer · Nov 23, 2012

Use the current final rinse for film made after about 2000. See my big post on stabilizers. I hoped it would be the final word.

PE

HumbleP · Nov 23, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Use the current final rinse for film made after about 2000. See my big post on stabilizers. I hoped it would be the final word.

PE

Thanks PE. I hadn't seen your Stabilizer post

michaelbsc · Nov 25, 2012

HumbleP said:
I've almost managed to source everything I need, all except for the Formalin in the stabalizer.

A few years ago I bought a few liters of formalin from a supplier on eBay with "free shipping" on orders over X. And it was fairly inexpensive.

When it arrived I noticed they did not declare or pay the HazMat fees. Just a plain brown box. But the onus is on the shipper.

Now, given that you're in Australia and I'm in the US this may very well be useless info. But just in case someone else looks, maybe they're still shipping.

Athiril · Nov 25, 2012

HumbleP said:
Thanks everyone for the responses. It's hugely helpful.
I've almost managed to source everything I need, all except for the Formalin in the stabalizer.
I'm wondering if I can leave the formalin out or should I just buy something like Kodak Flex III Stab & rep?
Thanks

The Flexicolor Stabiliser is sold at Vanbar, there's some on the shelf iirc.

wogster · Nov 27, 2012

michaelbsc said:
A few years ago I bought a few liters of formalin from a supplier on eBay with "free shipping" on orders over X. And it was fairly inexpensive.

When it arrived I noticed they did not declare or pay the HazMat fees. Just a plain brown box. But the onus is on the shipper.

Now, given that you're in Australia and I'm in the US this may very well be useless info. But just in case someone else looks, maybe they're still shipping.

Some shippers do that, the problem is Hazmat (actually dangerous goods is the proper term often shortened in the industry to DG) fees exist, because DGs should not be sent sent through sorting machines, some of those sorting machines are 5 storeys high, and stuff has been known to fall off the belt at the top.... Of course a spill, means the entire line needs to be shutdown and cleanup done, by a professional DG team. This can take hours and the costs to shutdown a sort line that deals with 100,000 pieces/hour can cost millions in overtime and other costs. This cleanup bill is kindly provided to the company who was too cheap to pay the DG fee.

When DG shipments are declared, the marked items are sorted by hand, this costs money, and that's why there are hazmat fees.

Many carriers do not ship DGs internationally, because there is extra paperwork involved and the shipper is responsible for making sure that an international shipment DG response team is available if there is a spill.

C41 Recipe

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