C41 PUSH?

[dxphoto]

How does C41 work? Is the process to develop 400 and 200 different? If I have shoot the 200 film at EI200, and want to develop at 400, do I need to tell them? Thanks.

 

[Dave Parker]

Most shops do not offer C41 push processing, there are a couple, but it is not common, none of the one hour labs do it, at least I have not run into any. I am a bit confused, why would you want to shoot 200 film at 200 and then develop like it was 400? any of the automatic processing machines like you find in the 1 hour labs, develop all of the C41 the same way, no variance in the amount of time in the machine.

Also a push would be if you actually shoot ISO 200 film at ISO 400 and a pull would be if you actually shoot 200 at 100, push is actually shot at a faster ISO than the film rating and pull is if you actully shoot at a lower ISO than the film rating.

Dave

 

[Nick Zentena]

You tell them it needs a one stop push. They then develop for 30 seconds longer then normal. I think one stop is 30 seconds. Of course this assumes they can.

All C-41 film given normal development gets the same time in the developer. ISO doesn't matter.

BTW I'm assuming you mean shooting 200 film at 400? Not sure why you'd want to shoot it at 200 and then develop for a 400 exposure.

 

[metod]

In my opinion, you would be disappointed if C-41 film is pushed too much. Its true that color film is quite forgiving in over or under exposure, but you would rather opt for over exposure as it brings out more saturation. What I used to do if extra speed needed, I bought ISO 800 film, rated it at 600 with nice results.

Metod

 

[dxphoto]

Thanks a lot for your answers.

The reason I ask is I didn't know how the C-41 process work, or how the one-hour photo work. I have a single used camera designed to use 400 film. I took it apart and load a roll of 200 to test to see the result.

Also, I am curious how the over/under, push/pull processes would affect the color in the film. I don't really want to color to be faithful, nor dramtic. I want this kind of result http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/htm/C...J63L&Pass=&Total=131&Pic=45&SubE=2S5RYDIQA5G8

Also, Metod, to bring out more saturation, I can over expose the film? I can shoot the 400 film as 200 and develop as normal, right?

Thanks.

 

[Dave Parker]

Dx,

The single use camera is set up with a fixed f-stop and there is no adjustments to vary shutter speed or exposure, those cameras are not designed for any particular speed of film, the reason you see 400 or 800 in all of them is to give the maximum amout of success possible for the snap shooter, because print films have such exposure lattitude, most of the time you will get good shots, but again, if you put 200 in it, its not going to vary the exposure based on the fact it orginally had 400 in it. Based on it being a single use that was optimized for 400 speed, your probably going to end up with thin negatives.

Dave

 

[dxphoto]

Thanks a lot for your answers.

The reason I ask is I didn't know how the C-41 process work, or how the one-hour photo work. I have a single used camera designed to use 400 film. I took it apart and load a roll of 200 to test to see the result.

Also, I am curious how the over/under, push/pull processes would affect the color in the film. I don't really want to color to be faithful, nor dramtic. I want this kind of result http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/htm/C...J63L&Pass=&Total=131&Pic=45&SubE=2S5RYDIQA5G8

Also, Metod, to bring out more saturation, I can over expose the film? I can shoot the 400 film as 200 and develop as normal, right?

Thanks.

And this is beyond the single use cameras. How should I do it with regular cameras.

 

[metod]

Also, Metod, to bring out more saturation, I can over expose the film? I can shoot the 400 film as 200 and develop as normal, right?

Thanks.

Yes, one stop overexposure is still OK. Usually, when you overexpose color film slightly, you get better saturation and colors just pop up. The grain tends to diminish slightly as well. This might not always work well, say you taking portraits. There is nothing worse than getting back pictures from uderexposed color film= no color and they are very flat.

As for the picture you sent the link to, that would be hard to achieve without you being at the last stage of the color control. At the lab they have these machines calibrated so they portray the reality as much as possible. Unless, perhaps if you ask them for the effect you are looking for.

 

[htmlguru4242]

How does C41 work? Is the process to develop 400 and 200 different? If I have shoot the 200 film at EI200, and want to develop at 400, do I need to tell them? Thanks.

C41 works somewhat the same as B&W, but with an extra step. Color develop, bleach (not present in B&W) and fix.

The times for all films, regardess of rated (not push) speed, are the same. The normal developing time is around 3:30.

Most 1 hour photo labs that I've seen will not push (or pull) your film. However, most of them do process for a little longer than reccomended; my local lab runs about 10 to 15 seconds longer than normal; their loginc is that customers often complain about underexposed film, and the slight push helps compensate for this (less complaints).

Your best be is probably to do this yourself, which is apparently not too hard ...

I'm going to try this myself at one point.

 

[Derek Lofgreen]

If c-41 has no time difference for dev then why does the local "pro" lab by me charge extra for each stop of push or pull? Seems like pushing and pulling is done in the camera with c-41 or am I missing something?

D.

 

[Dave Parker]

Derek,

if developing normal, all C41 speeds run the same amount of time, if your pulling or pushing, then you are increasing or decreasing development time, I would understand an extra charge to push, but don't understand why they would charge more for a pull as the film is in the developer less time, By the way, what lab in Colorado offers push and pull services for C41

Dave

 

[Derek Lofgreen]

Dave,
I could have sworn it was on their web site but now I don't see it. Maybe I was smoken' something when I saw it. They offer push/pull for E6 and push for BW, although it doesn't look like they charge for it now. Does E6 dev like BW with different dev times? I've seen Kodak say there E200 can be pushed to 3200, can that be right?

D.

 

[htmlguru4242]

Ohh, regardles of NATIVE RATED speed, C-41 films are the same. This is to say that any C-41 film, processed at its marked speed, is developed the same.

Pushing and pulling is done with extended or shhortened development,

 

[Dave Parker]

Derek,

Yes, push and pull refers to the amount of time the film is in the development stage, so if your pushing, you are leaving in development longer and if you are pulling your decreasing the amount of time in the development stage of processing.

Yes I have seen 200 pushed to 3200, not a pleasing result in my opinion, but it really depends on what your trying to accomplish by pushing it so far, it would result in a long time in the development stage to get a usuable image on a push of 4 stops like that, but indeed it is possible..

Dave

 

[Derek Lofgreen]

I must be having a senior moment day. I just checked the kodak site and it says it handles push for 2 stops. I could have sworn it was 4 stops. Oh well.

D.

 

[Poco]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a push would C41 development for about 7 minutes be equal to? I once did this with a scene that had less than 1 1/2 zones total contrast range and got fairly decent results.

 

[Samuel B]

Pushing and pulling which prolabs offer is done by varying the time in developer. Most prolabs will use a dip & dunk machine which will enable the operator to vary time in developer. If you have to push or pull the film will have to be done seperately hence the extra charge. Your average 1 hour photo store however will be using a roller transport processor. In these processors the only way to alter development is to alter the temperature setting in the developer, or to turn off the drive while the film is in the developer to extend the time. Neither of these is ideal, which is why these stores don't usually offer push / pull services.

 

[Dave Parker]

Pushing and pulling which prolabs offer is done by varying the time in developer. Most prolabs will use a dip & dunk machine which will enable the operator to vary time in developer. If you have to push or pull the film will have to be done seperately hence the extra charge. Your average 1 hour photo store however will be using a roller transport processor. In these processors the only way to alter development is to alter the temperature setting in the developer, or to turn off the drive while the film is in the developer to extend the time. Neither of these is ideal, which is why these stores don't usually offer push / pull services.

Actually both of our Noritusu machines in the store I worked at had a setting handle that we could turn that would alter the amount of processing time, the second store I worked in had agfa machines that we could program for the various push and pull processing needs.

Dave

 

[Samuel B]

That's interesting, what do you mean by setting handle? Never seen a noritsu with such a thing myself, maybe before my time. On my noritsu I don't see how that would work, there is a drive motor that turns all the racks, if you slowed it down you would have extra time in all the tanks, which I suppose wouldn't matter but you would also have lower the dryer temp to compensate. Mine also doesn't have any ability to alter push / pull times.

 

[Dave Parker]

That's interesting, what do you mean by setting handle? Never seen a noritsu with such a thing myself, maybe before my time. On my noritsu I don't see how that would work, there is a drive motor that turns all the racks, if you slowed it down you would have extra time in all the tanks, which I suppose wouldn't matter but you would also have lower the dryer temp to compensate. Mine also doesn't have any ability to alter push / pull times.

Sam,

If I remember right, out machine was a Noritusu 1290? Could be a 1400 series, it has been a few years since I worked there! on the right hand side of the machine there was a dial that would allow us to vary processing times, to allow up to a 2 stop push or pull, we also had a keypad on the right hand side that was used to check process temps and such, but both our C41 and our E6 machine had this feature to allow us to vary processing times.

Dave

 

[Samuel B]

Not familar with those models. Would the dial change the speed that the film runs through the processor then? These must have been features which were deemed not necessary in later models, unless they were more advanced than anything I have used. I have always assumed push / pull processing was too impractical in roller transport machines, but there you go, I've learnt something today.

 

[Dave Parker]

Samual,

Yes, the dial would change transport time and vary dryer temps, I will check on Saturday when I am in town to get the model numbers for you, it was quite a nice set up, we used to do a lot of processing for the various pros as well as Pop Photo workshops and having the machines that could vary processing made a big difference, those guys love to experiment..

Dave

 

[Samuel B]

Thanks for the info, I might have have a look at my old Noritsu catalogues to see if I can find the models you're talking about. It's Saturday morning here, and strangely enough I have a few films to do. No push / pull processing though!

 

[dxphoto]

Yes, one stop overexposure is still OK. Usually, when you overexpose color film slightly, you get better saturation and colors just pop up. The grain tends to diminish slightly as well. This might not always work well, say you taking portraits. There is nothing worse than getting back pictures from uderexposed color film= no color and they are very flat.
QUOTE]

If it is slightly under (like 1/2 stop), will that be a little bit less saturation and more flat, which will be like old time color film.

I had the gold200 popped into the 400 single used camera (rollei). I will put some image on later. It's hard to see how much under since I have no idea the f and s are.

 

[Samuel B]

It doesn't really matter what ASA film you put into the disposable camera since the shutter speed and apperture are fixed at an arbitary value, the only thing that will affect the exposure is the brightness of the scene being photographed. So it's just hit and miss, load it with any film, process as normal and see how it turns out.