C41 process at home

Ian Grant · Sep 24, 2007

Ron, while what you say makes sense it doesn't equate with the reality that I experienced with over 25+ years use of the Pip Pippard designed Photocolor II C41 kits, and his Chrome 6 (E6) kits or the experiences of many thousands of others.

Pippard was acknowledged to be an extremely good photo-chemist and was instrumental in the design & formulation of many of the well known Johnsons (Scale Brand) B&W photo-chemicals. Later he formulated the company's extremely successful range of Colour chemistry.

He surprised many people with the simplicity of use of his colour chemistry, cutting the number of baths to a minimum without losing any quality in the final negatives, slides or prints. So its sad to see Paterson no longer making his chemistry.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

Ian;

All any of us can do is comment from our experiences. I understand what you are saying as well, and can only recount my own experience.

PE

pentaxuser · Sep 24, 2007

Ian Grant said:
Try this page, was listed yesterday and is still listed today. Scroll down the page. Dead Link Removed

Yes unfortunately the Champion relocation ended production of all Paterson photo-chemicals until the recent link up with Calbe for B&W chemicals. A little known fact is that the original manufacturer of Paterson chemicals was Ilford !

Ian

Ian Thanks for that. Just as an experiment I then went to my bookmarked Retro site and googled it as well. In neither case could I find any reference to Photocolor II under Paterson on the site but then did a search on the Retro site under Photocolor II and up it came.

So it doesn't seem to be listed under Paterson - that only B&W chems but it is under the Photocolor name and then it mentions Paterson. It's the only part of the original Paterson chems. There's no blix or any RA4.

So I assume it's the last of the line. I can only assume that it must be within its sell by date otherwise Retro would not list it but my understanding of how long ago it is that this developer was last made for Paterson makes me wonder about it. I had always understood that even in an unopened state liquid colour developer has a limited life.

Still good value at the price but only if it retains its full potency

PE What's your belief about how long unopened liquid colour developer is likely to last?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Scuba_Phil · Sep 24, 2007

Thank you all for your great advice and wealth of knowledge. This discussion has certainly helped me out. I am going to try my hand at developing my film. I think that I have a good idea of where to start and once I pick up one of the kits, then I think I will be well on my way. Thanks again!!

Phil

Shypii90 · Sep 24, 2007

Yeah I don't think Phil is alone; I also found this thread very interesting!
Thanks to everyone! And Scuba_Phil of course for starting it in the first place

I'm sure it will be a great thread for newbies like us to research on before actually practicing!

Cheers
Shawn

poutnik · Sep 25, 2007

Well, yes, go for it.

I've been developing my C-41 films for almost a year (to be exact, I ran 4 batches of development): the first one was not really good - my temperature control was really sloppy and I got some very difficult to remove color casts.

But if you control the temperature precisely I get results I really like. (and a water bath at 39-40°C in a tub is enough: through the development, temperature will fall to around 37°C and the average temp is around or exactly the required 38C). In the end it's not any more difficult than BW.

edebill · Sep 30, 2007

poutnik said:
In the end it's not any more difficult than BW.

Once you've got the temperature control down, it's actually faster than B&W. I've been using Tetenal in a Jobo, and I actually have less trouble with color. It's hard to get water down to B&W temperatures, even developing at 75F. It's much easier to heat it up to 38C for color processing. You just have to have the patience to wait for your chemistry to come up to the right temperature.

rdbkorn · Oct 2, 2007

PE: for those of us who would like to try separate bleach and fix for C-41, could you suggest recipes for the bleach and fix and processing times?
Thanks, Paul

bob100684 · Oct 2, 2007

rdbkorn said:
PE: for those of us who would like to try separate bleach and fix for C-41, could you suggest recipes for the bleach and fix and processing times?
Thanks, Paul

Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere you cna use any non hardening b/w fixer for color.

Photo Engineer · Oct 2, 2007

rdbkorn said:
PE: for those of us who would like to try separate bleach and fix for C-41, could you suggest recipes for the bleach and fix and processing times?
Thanks, Paul

Bleach:

Ammonium Ferric EDTA 60% 200 ml
Ammonium Bromide 50 g
Ammonium Sulfite 10 g
Disodium EDTA 10 g
pH to 6.7 with either Ammonium Hydroxide or 28% acetic acid

Water to 1 liter. Use for 7 minutes at 100F.

Fix:

Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% 200 ml
Ammonium Sulfite 10 g
Disodium EDTA 10 g
pH to 6.7 with either Ammonium Hydroxide or 28% acetic acid.

Water to 1 liter. Use for 7 minutes at 100 F.

pH range 6.5 - 6.8 for either solution at 20 degrees C (68F)

Wash after the bleach for 5 mins and after the fix for 8 mins.

Use developer and stabilzer as normal.

If you mix these two together, remember that you are effectively diluting each of them 1:1 with water. This renders them much lower in effectiveness than before dilution. In fact, this is a common problem with most blixes today.

If you try to make up a single solution from both, you will find that it will be difficult to dissolve everything and the solution will be a one shot, because keeping will be so poor. It will probably keep about 1 week to 2 weeks before going bad. That is not cost effective.

If you use sodium salts (other than the EDTA), you will slow the blix down so much it will be very ineffective.

PE

OldBikerPete · Oct 2, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Bleach:

Ammonium Ferric EDTA 60% 200 ml
Ammonium Bromide 50 g
Ammonium Sulfite 10 g
Disodium EDTA 10 g
pH to 6.7 with either Ammonium Hydroxide or 28% acetic acid

Water to 1 liter. Use for 7 minutes at 100F.

PE

Hello, PE. In your much earlier post on another thread, I have made a note that you recommend the above formula except that the pH was 6.5, the time 6 minutes and most importantly, the Ammonium Bromide required was 150g!!
Is the difference a typo or something significant?

Photo Engineer · Oct 2, 2007

Well, the time in my data was 6.5 minutes. In the earlier post, I went with a lower time of 6 minutes with higher bromide. This time, I gave a higher time and less bromide because the higher bromide can etch stainless. I'm doing this all from memory and notes, not the real formulas which I turned in when I left Kodak.

In fact, ammonium chloride can be used but corrosion is worse. To prevent etching or corrosion with any of these, you have to add ammonium nitrate.

You cannot use any equipment that uses copper in it and all stainless should be 316. At the least, 308 can be used but not for storage. You must use glass or plastic.

And, BTW, I have about 5 - 10 formulas for these. Some are much better, but I am not prepared to disclose those.

The bottom line is that there is a tiny bit of slack in the formulas and process times for the mid-range formulas that I'm describing here.

I should also mention that the 'blix' made from mixing the above will lose stability and activity through dilution. At a pH of 4.5 it makes a yellow - orange blix which is very very active, but which is only stable for hours. There are also ferricyanide bleach then fix sequences that I have described elsewhere here on APUG, but they all require a clearing stop bath after development and then a wash before the bleach.

Most recent bleaches from Kodak use NTA instead of EDTA in all phases of compounding.

PE

rdbkorn · Oct 3, 2007

PE - Thanks for the help!

mtjade2007 · Oct 10, 2007

I do not see anyone mention Kodak Final Rinse. It replaces the stabilizer that is hazardous. However, only newer generation Kodak C-41 films should use the Final Rinse. For all Fuji and older Kodak C-41 films, such as Vericolor or VPS I-III, you should still use stabilizer. The problem is the store near me that sells Kodak chemicals now only has final rinse but no stabilizer. Does anyone know how to get stabilizer these days?

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2007

The final rinse has been mentioned here before. It is a proprietary anti 'bug' chemical that prevents mold, fungus and bacteria from growing on film. This is mixed with photo flo.

The old stabilzer is nothing more than a mixture of formalin and photo flo itself, and the formalin served 2 purposes. It stabilzed the older dyes and also prevented 'bug' growth.

Either can be used on recent films, but the formalin stabilzer must be used on older films (pre ~2002?).

PE

mtjade2007 · Oct 11, 2007

Great info, PE. Thanks a lot. Films from 2002 probably expired at 2006? So I have to use stablizer pretty much for all my expired films, except maybe Kodak Portra lines of films. Good to know that stabilizer is good for all films.

srs5694 · Oct 11, 2007

FWIW, regarding blixes vs. bleach and fix: I've tried both, using a mix-it-yourself blix formula that I found hideous, the Paterson Photocolor II blix that was much better but still not quite satisfactory, and Kodak bleach and fix that did what I expected. Perhaps the Paterson blix works better for others (because others are getting fresher supplies, using it with different films, using it in a subtly different way, or whatever), but overall I have no intention of using a blix again with C-41 film, at least not unless I hear of something new coming along or if supply issues force me to use a blix.

From an economic standpoint, it doesn't make much sense to mix either bleach or fixer oneself; the commercial products from Kodak or Fuji cost about the same as the mix-it-yourself formulas I've seen (they're usually a bit less expensive, in fact). Unfortunately, B&H doesn't like to ship bleach, but I've bought Kodak bleach from both Adorama and Unique Photo; both will ship it. I believe Freestyle also sells a third-party bleach, but shipping liquid from California to Rhode Island isn't very cost-effective.

I haven't checked with Unique Photo, but the last time I looked, Adorama had the old-style stabilizer. I bought a big bottle of it because I've got a substantial stock of some Agfa color films, and I didn't know if they'd work well with the newer non-formalin final rinse, so I wanted to be sure to have a good stock of the stabilizer in case it goes away before I finish the Agfa film.

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

I am currently working on Super Fix VII. With the proper additives, it will also work as a blix for film or paper. It should be shippable. Stay tuned to this station.

PE

Svitantti · Oct 17, 2007

Hello all!

I am a beginner with C-41 process and going to do first films next weekend or so.

I would like to ask, how do you manage the chemicals? I have 1 liter Tetenal 3-bath Kit and Jobo CPP-2.

Seems like the amount for one process is 270ml. Should I do a 333 ml working solution and use it 4-5 times, then do a new one so that I get 3 solutions each for 4-5 films? How do you guys do this?

Akki14 · Oct 17, 2007

i mixed up 500ml of my tetenal kit and reused it, using the reusing time adjustment table. The table is really awful, I just reused the stuff until I had done 6 films, regardless of how many I was processing per time (usually only 1-2 films a go, I was using a normal paterson tank and medium format film, mostly ISO160 only a few ISO400 ones).

PVia · Oct 17, 2007

Akki14 said:
i mixed up 500ml of my tetenal kit and reused it, using the reusing time adjustment table. The table is really awful, I just reused the stuff until I had done 6 films, regardless of how many I was processing per time (usually only 1-2 films a go, I was using a normal paterson tank and medium format film, mostly ISO160 only a few ISO400 ones).

So, Heather...you got 6 rolls from 500ml?

You mentioned the table being awful. Did you adjust times for the reuse?

Did you store the chems between processing? How and where?

Were you happy with the results?

Thanks in advance...!

Svitantti · Oct 17, 2007

Thank you!
Sounds good, I forgot about the table, saw it today while reading the manual. I guess I will do 500 ml also.

Can I use Citron acid as a stop bath? That is my B&W process stop bath. I also have some Kodak (Tmax?) stop..

Svitantti · Oct 18, 2007

One more question: taking care about waste chemicals - does it work like the b&w and can you mix c41 and b&w chemicals (dev, blix & fix)?

Photo Engineer · Oct 18, 2007

All Kodak color chemistry can be mixed together, and can be mixed with B&W developer, stop and fix. The problem takes place when you leave the silver in the fix. You should remove silver from fix before you mix it with anything, and the same goes for blix.

PE

chorleyjeff · Oct 18, 2007

Very interesting and informative discussion.
Question. Does the advice apply equally to XP2? Would the grain be visibly different in an XP2 12 times enlargement if Tetenal blix rather than seperate bleach and fix was used? I ask because I did some 12 times enlargements from blixed negatives and there was more "grain" than I thought there would have been.
Cheers
Jeff

C41 process at home

Shypii90

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