C41 + Jobo CPE2 = Woes

["B"]

Hi guys, this is a first post and I hope you guys might be able to answer a lot of questions I have in one single post.

I started out as a digital shooter about three years ago and realized that I wanted to give film a go. Some time last year I decided to make the jump and knew if I wanted to realistically enjoy the effort involved I'd have to go big. My school (which I've now graduated from) only supported B&W work, so I borrowed a Yashica TLR and snuck into the darkroom at night. I took well to shooting TMAX and scanning using the school's Nikon Coolscan 9000 and never had much an issue at all. It was new ground and in my eyes 35mm digital couldn't come close.

Fast-forward to six months ago. I ditched some digital kit and picked up a Mamiya 7, Jobo CPE2, and Epson V700. At the time I knew absolutely nothing about the chemistry involved and I picked up two of these:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/20414...lor-Negative-Developing-Kit-1-Gallon?sc=24100

Since then I've learned the idiosyncrasies of the Jobo through dozens of rolls of 120 and 35mm film. I've tried Ektar, 160VC, 160NC, 400NC, 400VC, Fuji Pro400H, and some Ilford B&W film. I ensure first the bath is up to temperature, then the chemicals. I calculate the extended times for exhaustion. I store my chemicals in the fridge, mix them with distilled water, and put marbles in my containers to evacuate all air at the top.

But despite all this, the only time that I'm confident I'll get what I expect is with a fresh batch of chemicals mixed out of that kit along with a roll of Ektar. I've heard all kinds of stories in terms of shelf life, and I've tried nearly everything to help.

Here is an example of what's "good", fresh chemistry and a roll of ektar:

Here's an example of what's "bad", one week old chemistry (only one roll through it prior) with a roll of pro 400H that wasn't refrigerated:

I anticipate a lack of saturation and dynamic range based on the comparison of the two films all by themselves, but not results this bad. It seems as if these photos are coming out of a morgue almost.


I'm scanning using Silverfast AI. I don't recognize most of the film types and can't find any of the ones I actually use in it aside from Porta, so I just pick what looks to capture the density of the negative the best, ignore color balance, and try to correct that in Photoshop.


What gives? I've heard of aeration of blix and that seems to be the only possible variable left in terms of maintenance of chemicals. Only recently I realized that I should take my film off the spool when using stabilizer. Could the plastic spool be contaminated already and would it result in this?

There's a ton of variables and I expect to be told that's the case and there's no straight answer, but I'm hoping for the faintest of clues here as from what I've seen you guys KNOW your stuff. Am I expecting too much from a simple kit like this? What chemistry should I go for next time, as I haven't heard the nicest things about Blix vs Bleach & Fixer. I never anticipate shooting more than a roll or two of film a week, but want to be able to develop them in reasonably small batches.

Thank you so much,
Brendan

 

[OldBikerPete]

From my own experience, I expect that most of your dissatisfaction stems from your scanning process. Most scanning software tries to 'help' by making settings automatically for you. I haven't used Silverfast a lot but what I found with that is that it, too, makes settings for you automatically - and most off the time gets them not quite right. I have scanned the same negative five times and got five different results. Try that yourself!
I currently have an artixscan M1 with which I use the OEM Microtek software BECAUSE I can bypass all the automatic stuff and get it to behave much more like a color enlarger - all manual controls. Consistent results.

Then there's your C41 process. Many C41 workers only use their developers one-shot - throw it away even though they've only used one-third of the capacity - and certainly don't reuse used developer which has been stored for a week. The developer represents about 10% of the cost of the C-41 development suite with the bleach representing about 70%. So buy three litres of developer and one litre each of the other solutions and use your developer one-shot.

I mostly don't use developer one-shot but I accumulate negatives until I can use all the capacity in one session.
I mix my own solutions so I only make up just enough developer to suit what I have on hand. The bleach and fix keep well if you use an acid stop bath, so I regenerate and re-buffer the bleach.

To sum up, you got a few points of potential instability in your workflow. You need to go right through, identify and fix each of those in turn.

If you have access to a good lab., develop your own negs then get them to print a few. That should indicate whether you've got processing problems at all. If you have, fix them before to progress to fixing your scanning problems. Minilab process control strips can be bought if you really have trouble (I bought a box of 50). They can then be evaluated either by scanning them or (better) by running them through a densitometer. That lab. will probably have one they can run your strips for you - I picked up a densitometer on eBay for AU$15.

Hope this helps,
Peter.

 

[stephanie]

hello
i thought i could help because i and a undergrad student at a college that just happens to have a working color dark room. and i also am the TA for this dark room.

for my experience the jobo is the most testy proses i have ever seen however there are a few tricks that i have picked up along the way and maybe i can help.

the first thing i realized when mixing our chemistry is that if we mixed the hole amount that was way to much. so we only mix .25 of the chemicals at a time the second thing we do is get them out of the big 3 leader jug and in to the small jobo jugs so what you could do i figer out how much you need for the day and do the conversion to that amount of parts a b and c

the next thing that that was the largest factor was time and temp.

but you said you are pridy on top of that

the 3 thing that makes a huge diffrence is if you are making you prints all at once or if you are testing and then printing
we found that you nad to make a print from start to finish even if it takes you 5 hours wich it often dose

now i am a little fogy on this part you are develuping you own film and scanning the negatives.

if this is the case you might want to try getting the neg. done at a over night place like target they will give you back just neg. for $0.95 and then you can print with the jobo on color paper because if you like the negs you will be obsessed with jobo prints i have never seen an ink print that could hold a candle to them

as far as blix and stop go those are the other things that we found go bad After few uses for stop we use 4 oz to make one Galen of water this is debel strength compared to b&w printing and we dump it in the bad buket after 3 uses
as far as blix goes if you are making sure you dump it after 50 uses you should be good

a great book to look at is the 4th edition of
Robert Hirsch, Exploring Color Photography, McGraw Hill, ISBN 0-07-240706-9

that is what we use and it has tuns of trouble shooting stuff in it


ok so i think that is all i have as far as chemical info
hope it helped if not sorry i wasted your time

good luck

steph

 

[TareqPhoto]

Where i can by the Jobo CPE2?

 

[RobertV]

Where i can buy the Jobo CPE2?

You can buy a Jobo CPE/CPA/CPP andd ATL machines only second hand due to the simple fact Jobo does not produce them anymore new.

Best chance you will have on the West European market. E-Bay, Marktplaats etc.
If parts are broken you can replace most parts still available with Jobo in Germany.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[david_mizen]

have a hunt around for the jobo book on rotary developing i think its called the "rotary developing handbook" or something like it
i am no expert on c41 ut my understanding is that the jobo is very hard on the first dev the rotary action causes the dev to oxidise very quickly if your returning your used dev back into your stock solution take note of oldbikerpete use it one shot and throw it out.

 

[L Gebhardt]

With color negatives scanning them takes lots of practice. My guess is that the negs are fine, but you need to work on scanning.

I have had problematic negs in the past when i tried to scan them. Only once I made a print in the darkroom did I know for sure it was actually ok. Have you tried sending one out for wet printing? You might ask over at the hybrid site (link at the top) for help on the scanning process.

If it is the development, I would try to get ahold of Kodak or Fuji chemicals to eliminate one more variable. They both make C41 that is universally regarded as working well.

 

[domaz]

I read Silverfast has recently come out with a new profile for Ektar film. You might want to update your scanning software. I have found scanning Ektar with Vuescan produces similar results- selecting the Kodak Porta profile sometimes helps but sometimes I end up scanning RAW and modifying the curves myself.

 

[pentaxuser]

have a hunt around for the jobo book on rotary developing i think its called the "rotary developing handbook" or something like it
.

I think you are referring to "The Rotary Processor Manual" by John Tinsley. I'd endorse your suggestion about obtaining a copy. It appears on the U.K. e-bay occasionally but I'd look at sites such as Amazon, Abebooks and Allibris for copies.

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Taylor]

FWIW, I use Kodak Flexicolor C-41 chemistry exclusively and follow Kodak's and Jobo's instructions religiously using a CPA-2 which is a larger version of the CPE-2. I never reuse the developer or fix - both of which are fairly cheap ($2/Liter for the developer and much less for the fix). If, or example, I'm processing say 4 rolls 2 rolls at a time, I'll mix developer and fix sufficient for 4 rolls and bleach for two - tossing the developer and fix after each use and capturing the bleach for the 2d run. It's very important to get a good drain of the used chemistry after each step so allow 10 to 20 seconds, depending on the quantity, for the drain before pouring in the next step.

Finally, be certain that you aerate the bleach before using it. You can do this by placing it in a container that will hold twice the volume and shake it vigorously for 30 seconds. Some folks don't think that it's necessary to aerate the bleach since you are using a rotary processor. But doing it before hand is simple and reassuring that the bleach is already aerated before it hits the film.

 

["B"]

@ Peter

Thank you Peter. I was unaware that developer was preferred to be a one shot ordeal. Just goes to show how blind I went into this! I struggled through some research on the c41 process under impression that the dev. would keep with proper storage. The fact that the kit seems to have an equal mix of Dev, Blix, and Stabilizer furthered this notion I suppose...

Up until about a month ago I scanned with Epson Scan, the packaged scanning software. I much prefer its simplified user interface, but I have seen a noticeable improvement in output due to Silverfast's multi-scan feature. I've got pretty extensive experience in the d$!*(@ post-processing arena, and the color shifts are still beyond my scope of repair. I really think it's my practices in development, but after I do some more research on the hybrid work flow there's no certain way to know.

Unfortunately I don't have access to a proper lab for some diagnostic analysis. The closest lab is nearly fifty miles away in Washington DC.

@ Steph

Thanks for the advice, I too am mixing smaller batches but trying to still be as precise as possible. I'll have to check out that book, something I probably should have done to begin with. Oh well, it's been an enormous learning experience.

@ David

That sounds like my dream book. When I purchased my Jobo on ebay I didn't even realize that I needed an up-converter to properly run a 220V system on 110v plugs. It wouldn't heat up to proper temp, and the rotation was half speed. On top of that the first few runs I didn't realize that the Blix can pressurize and blow the top off the Jobo drum spilling its contents into the bath, so I had to begin pausing to release trapped gases. Then I realized that my bath was the proper temperature though I wasn't giving my chemistry enough time to reach that temperature. Clearly, there's a lot to learn but I feel closer than ever before.

@ L Gebhardt

I will continually to look at my scanning practices and check out the hybrid forum. I've never sent any negatives out for wet printing though it'd be a much better gauge than a scan. It'd probably be a good idea as eventually I want to learn how to print in this fashion by myself and would like to see some samples, specifically of my own work. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I've even seen a wet print in the last six months (after I've begun to partake in developing c41).

@ Domaz

I just downloaded the update to Silverfast. A profile for Ektar would be much welcome. Now the peculiar process of trying to uninstall Silverfast to install the update. Ugh. The user interface of this software nearly kills the enjoyment of shooting film altogether. Thanks for the heads up.

@ Tom

That is sufficient aeration? I anticipate I'll do that every time I develop now. What's the story on people using air stones and filter pumps for aquariums? Same principle, just less work and greater consistency?



Before asking anyone, I'm now going to look into purchasing some new flexicolor chemicals as my Arista kit is almost empty now. Most of the distributer's websites aren't exactly clear, as I don't know how replenisher and starter relate to one another and what a complete set of chemicals to buy would be. I'm certain it's been asked on this forum many times before though, so I will do some searching.

 

[shootpositive]

@ Peter
Before asking anyone, I'm now going to look into purchasing some new flexicolor chemicals as my Arista kit is almost empty now. Most of the distributer's websites aren't exactly clear, as I don't know how replenisher and starter relate to one another and what a complete set of chemicals to buy would be. I'm certain it's been asked on this forum many times before though, so I will do some searching.

The flexicolor 1 gal has been discontinued and replaced with the Flexicolor SM which is made for SM processors and not Jobo so they apparently need to be "reverse engineered". I just contacted Calumet in regards to the new kit:
"Here is the latest skinny; the items you asked for [Flexicolor 1 gal.] have been discontinued by Kodak and replaced by the following.
KP02923 FLEX SM TANK DEVELOPER 001 0 12.49
KP02938 FLEX SM TANK BLEACH TM 2.7L 001 0 35.99
KP02911 FLEXCLR FIN RINSE C-41 F/ 5 L 001 1 6.19
KP02861 FLEX FIX/REPL TM 5L 591 0 4.99

We can order these items, I expect they take about 2 to 3 weeks to order."

It's tricky enough finding the SM chemicals but even trickier trying to figure out how to make a normal 4 step mixture out of 6 chemicals in 2 packages labeled F1 and F2

 

[nagairaj]

Scanning the negatives will produce better results if you use something like Imacon Precision or Flextight photo rather than flatbed. You will have some learning curve with a software, but results will be worth it

 

[wblynch]

Scanning the negatives will produce better results if you use something like Imacon Precision or Flextight photo rather than flatbed. You will have some learning curve with a software, but results will be worth it

I agree... a $10,000 scanner beats a $500 scanner almost every time !

 

[John Shriver]

Also consider the Rollei Digibase C-41 chemistry. It's Fuji-Hunt chemistry repackaged for ease of use at home, in small bottles. Price is very reasonable at Freestyle!

Murky negatives could be the Blix failing in the kit you're using. That's easy to check, run the process again starting at the Blix step, but lengthen that time a lot. Blix's are notoriously unstable, even twitchier than C-41 developer.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I agree... a $10,000 scanner beats a $500 scanner almost every time !

And for $10,000 I could set up an amazing darkroom. Wet photography is archival; stink-jet is not. So what exactly is you point??

Steve

 

[wblynch]

And for $10,000 I could set up an amazing darkroom. Wet photography is archival; stink-jet is not. So what exactly is you point??

Steve

Wow

 

[brucemuir]

I don't think this is a scanning issue.

Although I've had good results with my first attempts with a "kit" much like the one you linked I moved on to Kodak Flexicolor for my C41 process.

B, it seems you are interested in consistency and QUALITY negs (aren't we all).
My advice to you is to go the Flexicolor route.

It does take a bit of research to find out the correct amounts and it can be a hassle to get the stuff shipped but it's well worth the effort.
The hardest thing to source is the bleach but you can find it.

I run small inversion tanks and replenish and I get excellent results and found it's way more economical even if your initial outlay seems like it's mpre expensive this way.

 

[mtjade2007]

I don't think it is a scanning issue either. I have had lots of problems with C-41 processing with a Jobo rotary processor. I believe it is either a developer capacity issue or it is a problem associated with actual development temperature in the Jobo rotary tank. A roll of 120 film has twice the area of film of a 135/36 roll. Did you use enough developer to process the 120 film? You might have hit the limit of the developer capacity.

If chemical capacity is not the problem it might be an issue of developer temperature in the Jobo tank. When you pour the developer into the tank the developer temperature may be lowered significantly by the tank, film reel and the film instantly. This is more likely to impact 120/220 films than 135 rolls. The solution to this is to prewarm the film/rank with tempered water.

 

[fotch]

..........A roll of 120 film has twice the area of film of a 135/36 roll. Did you use enough developer to process the 120 film? You might have hit the limit of the developer capacity.
.........................

Twice the area? Are you sure? I can make an 8x10 contact print from either, they are about the same size.