C41 developing saturation

trythis · Oct 9, 2015

I have been developing C41 at home using the Rollei colorchem kit. This is the kit with Blix. The only complaint I have at this point is that the colors are not as saturated as I get from the lab.

I've been developing at 25° according to instructions and I added some extra time to increase contrast. Does adding extra time decrease saturation?

Or is this a Blix vs bleach then fix issue?

Thanks.

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pentaxuser · Oct 9, 2015

What's "25&#176?
Thanks

pentaxuser

fdonadio · Oct 9, 2015

He meant 25 degrees... And I am pretty sure it's Celsius, not Fahrenheit.

Wayne · Oct 9, 2015

How do you know the colors aren't as saturated? Are you scanning or printing?

Mr Bill · Oct 9, 2015

Hi, the dyes that form the color come from the developer, so this what really controls the "strength" of the color. However, it can be "degraded" by residual silver, not unlike flare light degrading color in a scene. Residual silver is the result of insufficient bleach or fixer. The classic photofinisher test is to inspect with an infrared scope - good film appears perfectly blank. An alternate test is to rebleach and fix in known-good chemicals. If it were me, I'd cut one of the negs in half, then re-blix it for a few minutes. If there is any change at all, this means your first bleach/fix was insufficient.

pentaxuser · Oct 9, 2015

fdonadio said:
He meant 25 degrees... And I am pretty sure it's Celsius, not Fahrenheit.

Thanks I thought that 25 probably indicated temperature but thought that &#176 must indicate more than just temperature. What wrong with C I wonder? C would seem to be a shorter shorthand

pentaxuser

pdeeh · Oct 9, 2015

pentaxuser said:
What wrong with C I wonder? C would seem to be a shorter shorthand

trythis said:
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there's your answer

trythis · Oct 9, 2015

Mr Bill said:
Hi, the dyes that form the color come from the developer, so this what really controls the "strength" of the color. However, it can be "degraded" by residual silver, not unlike flare light degrading color in a scene. Residual silver is the result of insufficient bleach or fixer. The classic photofinisher test is to inspect with an infrared scope - good film appears perfectly blank. An alternate test is to rebleach and fix in known-good chemicals. If it were me, I'd cut one of the negs in half, then re-blix it for a few minutes. If there is any change at all, this means your first bleach/fix was insufficient.

Negatives are cut but I just tossed out the chems after 18 rolls so.

I can see the color saturation difference in the rebate lettering. The lab stuff it's green, in mine its brown. Bright red stuff is only faintly green instead of very strong green.

I am scanning and color balance is only off a little. I have scanned 50+ rolls of the same film lab developed and the only visible difference is saturation.

I will try a re blix and just then bite the bullet And make a bleach then fix batch for my next kit.

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pentaxuser · Oct 9, 2015

pdeeh said:
there's your answer

I think I'll stick with "Happy Talk" in that case

pentaxuser

Mr Bill · Oct 9, 2015

trythis said:
Bright red stuff is only faintly green instead of very strong green.

In all of my substantial C41 experience, I've never tried visual troubleshooting, but this suggests that the development is too weak. But first confirm if the blix step was enough. The actual dyes in the film are called cyan, magenta, and yellow. When you photograph a red object, this should form cyan dye, which is most likely what you are calling green. This is the top dye layer in most films, and is generally the one most affected by changing the development time, temp, etc. So if the amount of cyan dye is too low, we look for problems like low temp (or agitation), or short process time, or overused developer. A densitometer can zero in on the individual colors, but to do this by eye you really want to get possible blix problems out of the picture. Hope this helps a bit.

Photo Engineer · Oct 9, 2015

Some edge markings are actually green and others are cyan + mask or near neutral. It depends on film.

In this case, I bet on the blix. I am guessing this because the color balance is off "only a little".

PE

trythis · Oct 9, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Some edge markings are actually green and others are cyan + mask or near neutral. It depends on film.

In this case, I bet on the blix. I am guessing this because the color balance is off "only a little".

PE

Yeah, sorry I dont have densitometry equipment or a darkroom but when I scan, the color adjustment sliders only need a very small adjustment and this is no different with the same film developed at a pro lab here.

Yea if course its Cyan, not green but I am far from being a chemist or a photo pro. Just a hobbiest trying to enjoy color on a budget. Please forgive my poor terminology.

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Sirius Glass · Oct 9, 2015

I am not aware of a way of altering the saturation via C-41 processing. To change the saturation try a different film such as Ektar, Kodak Ultra Color or Kodak Vivid Color. The last two have been discontinued for years but occasionally they come up for sale.

Mr Bill · Oct 9, 2015

trythis said:
Yea if course its Cyan, not green but I am far from being a chemist or a photo pro. Just a hobbiest trying to enjoy color on a budget. Please forgive my poor terminology.

No problem and no offense intended; the main reason I post is for enthusiasts like you, trying to tell things i would have wanted to know if I had been in your place.

My point really was that the dyes don't change with development - only the relative quantities. So if the quantity of cyan dye is decreased, this is definitely a development problem. But since you have to evaluate by eye, all you can go on is the "strength" of the color, which is weakened by retained silver. So, IMO, your best bet is to conclusively rule out residual silver, then proceed from there.

PE puts his bet on it being a blix problem, I would imagine, because he visualizes the three dye response curves and knows that if the cyan drifted apart from the others, then the overall color would also shift. Since the color doesn't seem to have changed much, the most likely guess is that retained silver is the culprit. My experience is largely from doing "process control" with a very large lab, so I've learned to keep my options open until all the loose ends are explained. But I certainly would not take the bet against PE.

Photo Engineer · Oct 9, 2015

Mr Bill, your explanation is perfect!

PE

Mr Bill · Oct 9, 2015

Thanks PE, I hope my head doesn't swell up too big now. ([Smiling] cuz I I don't know how to use those little icons)

trythis · Oct 10, 2015

I appreciate the help and took no offense at all.

Rudeofus · Oct 10, 2015

Saturation (or lack thereof) comes from two sources:

Insufficient bleach/BLIX will leave residual silver, and since silver blocks all colours the same, saturation will decrease.
There are interlayer effects, which means development in one colour layer can (and in many films will) inhibit development in adjacent layers, which increases saturation.

Everything you did (many reuses of your process liquids without replenishment, room temp processing) would cause both insufficient bleaching/BLIXing, and a decrease in these interlayer effects. Colour film processing labs use replenished and monitored process liquids, and they all process at 38°F/100°F.

People here already indicated that you should re-BLIX to check whether retained silver causes most of the loss of saturation. While decreased interlayer effects can create funky colours, retained silver will also decrease archival stability of your negatives. If you re-BLIX, do it at the recommended temperature (somewhere between 35°C and 45°C is fine), and extend BLIX time to at least ten minutes. If you have negs you don't particularly care about, you could also do a quick test with a small test strip in Farmer's reducer, this would save you from mixing a new batch of colour chemistry right away.

BTW: did you prewash your film? While this is good for maintaining tank and film temperature, it dilutes the colour developer with every reuse, thereby changing its properties.

Xmas · Oct 10, 2015

Some do it deliberate...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach_bypass

But if you rebleach and fix you will be ok unless the development was also compromised.

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2015

Well, I agree that processing at a lower temp will decrease saturation, especially in cyan dye, and would indict that as the primary cause, but the other symptoms suggested bleach. Also, if you use a prewet and use the chemicals one or perhaps 2 times you are ok, but more than that requires changing development times.

PE

trythis · Oct 10, 2015

I have been increasing dev times with multiple uses. I have read a few different kit instructions and the troubleshooting guides also indicate blix failure. I think 16 rolls as the instructions indicated is too many for the blix. Developer seems to be working but blix failure is my next focus. I have read several old threads on c41 and blix failure is a common problem. I think that in the future i will buy a cheaper kit and throw out, or cross process/ experiment with the "dregs".

I presoak when doing high temp and stopped but the film was soaking up the developer so I started doing that with room temp.

This kit was a 2.5 liter kit so i will use a half liter blix to reblix my 7 uncut rolls.

Perhaps this blix just fails in a few days from being strong?

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Rudeofus · Oct 10, 2015

trythis said:
I have been increasing dev times with multiple uses. I have read a few different kit instructions and the troubleshooting guides also indicate blix failure. I think 16 rolls as the instructions indicated is too many for the blix. Developer seems to be working but blix failure is my next focus. I have read several old threads on c41 and blix failure is a common problem. I think that in the future i will buy a cheaper kit and throw out, or cross process/ experiment with the "dregs".

I have no personal experience with the "cheaper kits", but from what I read here, the cheaper the kit, the cheaper (and poorer) the BLIX. There isn't really much a manufacturer can vary with CD, but with BLIX it's open season apparently.

trythis said:
This kit was a 2.5 liter kit so i will use a half liter blix to reblix my 7 uncut rolls.

Ideally you'd reblix not a whole roll, but only part of a roll, so you can compare side by side (at least the rebates, if your image matter is different in every frame). If there is no visible difference between original negs and negs that were reblixed for >5 minutes, then retained silver is not your main issue.

If you plan on overusing your CD, you should either convert your BLIX into separate bleach (see my article) and prepare multiple fixer batches, or get extra BLIXes from reputable kits.

trythis · Oct 10, 2015

I re-blixed and the results are much better. Lots of color to work with and no major shifts hidden under all that left over silver.
The color mask is different than the lab developed film but I can work with this much easier.
I mixed up some fresh and ran through the process at 38 C. This time it looks like pro lab work with bright colors and normal mask color. Its still wet so I cant scan yet. Here are three scans,

First is the badly blixed, low temp. To me it looks like monochrome in sepia, (low saturation)

2nd is reblixed: More visible colors and less muddy.

3rd is a previously lab developed:

Nothing stellar in photgraphy but enough to see the difference in rebate and saturation.

The fresh batch that was developed at the right temps looks very much like the last one.

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2015

All right, you have another problem. The Dmin or base color of the edges of the negatives should match that of the lab processed negatives. It should not be brown. This means that there is a problem with the temperature (at a guess) as well as possible exhaustion.

PE

mts · Oct 11, 2015

Your example possibly shows leuco-cyan (colorless) dye formation owing to low temperature, low pH in developer, or exhaustion. You should process test film, usually a MacBeth color chart, until you have gotten the technique and chemistry correct, and thereafter process your film using exactly the same procedure. I generally use and re-use one-liter of scratch-mixed C-41 developer for no more than 8-10 rolls over no longer than a two-week period. I increase development time from 3m 30s to nearly 4m during the developer lifetime. The pH of my developer is set to 10.2 initially and it does slowly decrease to perhaps 10.0, hence the necessity to increase developing times. I NEVER use blix, for reasons that have been discussed here. Use only separate bleach and fix, and include stop after the developer and a rinse after subsequent solutions.

C41 developing saturation

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